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Message: <blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 9438915" data-attributes="member: 6790260">All of which is done easier, faster, and more consistently in 4e. That was the whole point.....except saving throws are very specifically one of the parts that DON'T work consistently, because most characters will be bad at any given save. Intelligence saves, for example, are extremely dangerous because only three classes get Int save proficiency, and only one gets actual mechanical benefits from their Intelligence (four and two, respectively, if counting Artificer). Strength is even worse, with only two classes getting Str save proficiency,....this is the first time I've ever heard of 5e math being referred to as "tight." It is not tight. It is extraordinarily loose, especially compared to other versions of D&D. Again, 4e did this better in every measurable way.And, again, 4e was even more predictable than 5e is, despite using many different roads to get to the same destination, e.g. Warlock and Ranger using effectively "called shot" damage (Hunter's Mark/Hex), Rogues getting Sneak Attack dice with Combat Advantage, Avengers being extremely accurate with (as we would call it now) advantage on all attacks vs. their chosen target, Sorcerers and Barbarians getting just flat Big Damage bonuses, etc.Every alleged virtue you've cited, 5e is simply worse than comparable alternatives. Every single one.I am not denying mathematics. I am saying that your demonstrated inexperience with 4e being simply better with every single thing you've cited shows that your point isn't anywhere near as strong as you think it is.....have you actually looked at the spells in the PHB? They CONSTANTLY deviate from those numbers. Sometimes egregiously so! Fireball actively spits in the face of those numbers, and it's just the poster child of that sort of thing. 5e spell design is all over the place, and is one of the major reasons why spellcasters, while not AS egregiously overpowered as they were in 3e, are still fundamentally overpowered compared to non-casters.I mean, if I can do so without actually spending money (as I have a very, very tight budget at present), I would be happy to do so. But until then, I'm looking at the 5e we got, and compared to 4e, it is a sloppy, buggy, vague mess.</blockquote>

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