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<blockquote data-quote="Larcen" data-source="post: 191956" data-attributes="member: 2406">I think I would have to agree with you Dr. Zoom.&nbsp; I was just thinking that if you COULD use visual clues then the following would be possible, which would be BAD:You hold up a large card that says &quot;KILL YOURSELF&quot; to a person that can read and then you Command &quot;Obey.&quot; .....ouch.&nbsp; I can see lots of problems here if you can use visual clues.Oh!&nbsp; Wait a minute!&nbsp; Forget the card.&nbsp; Why can't someone just Command &quot;Obey!&quot; and THEN order the guy to kill himself?&nbsp; I mean, if he missed his save he has to then obey you for a full round right? I know this is a misuse of the spell, but rules-wise why would this not be possible?&nbsp; Is it because the &quot;Obey&quot; command is too vague and the target doesn't really know WHO to obey?Also, on the one round duration thing, what you are saying is that there is no way the casting cleric can get an attack on the helpless person who just &quot;died&quot; for a round, barring Haste effects?&nbsp; That by the time the cleric can act again, the target is no longer helpless?&nbsp; Well, here is my thinking.&nbsp; The guy is helpless AFTER the cleric did his action and cast the Command.&nbsp; So keeping the same order of things next round, why would't the target stop being helpless AFTER the cleric got his attack action?&nbsp; Seems like the cleric is going first in both cases:Cleric casts Command --&gt;&nbsp; Person &quot;dies&quot; helpless&nbsp;&nbsp; exactly one round laterCleric attacks --&gt; Person comes out of it.See what I mean?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Larcen, post: 191956, member: 2406"] I think I would have to agree with you Dr. Zoom. I was just thinking that if you COULD use visual clues then the following would be possible, which would be BAD: You hold up a large card that says "KILL YOURSELF" to a person that can read and then you Command "Obey." .....ouch. I can see lots of problems here if you can use visual clues. Oh! Wait a minute! Forget the card. Why can't someone just Command "Obey!" and THEN order the guy to kill himself? I mean, if he missed his save he has to then obey you for a full round right? I know this is a misuse of the spell, but rules-wise why would this not be possible? Is it because the "Obey" command is too vague and the target doesn't really know WHO to obey? Also, on the one round duration thing, what you are saying is that there is no way the casting cleric can get an attack on the helpless person who just "died" for a round, barring Haste effects? That by the time the cleric can act again, the target is no longer helpless? Well, here is my thinking. The guy is helpless AFTER the cleric did his action and cast the Command. So keeping the same order of things next round, why would't the target stop being helpless AFTER the cleric got his attack action? Seems like the cleric is going first in both cases: Cleric casts Command --> Person "dies" helpless exactly one round later Cleric attacks --> Person comes out of it. See what I mean? [/QUOTE]

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