Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 4737674" data-attributes="member: 2020">Allow me to make some comments here.  Obviously, it could be.  It wouldn't be for me, but I concede it might be for a lot of people (especially those who are DMing, and have a far greater workload.)  I myself would enjoy such an array of feats, as a player or a DM.    You don't know that.  As DM, I feel I could create appropriate challenges against characters armed with such a wealth of feats and skills.  In my opinion, at least, most other DMs could also, and many would enjoy doing so.  (My opinion.)    Even under my system, even at 20th level, they would have fewer than 110 feats, or fewer than 1 feat per *page* in that list.  They would not have everything!  Even a gestalt character, with double the feats, would have to reach 15th level or so to obtain 110 feats, or 1 feat per page on that list.  And the gestalt are for high powered campaigns, for special circumstances.  As for skills, there are 45 in the PH alone, and about 10x that many more published.  Even with a starting number of 8 (a fighter's 2, x4 for my system, + 8 per level) would be hard pressed to obtain 1 skill rank in every skill, even by 20th level.  (At 20th level, he'd have - assuming an 18 Prime Requisite, 32 starting points + 352 points for 19 levels, or 384 points, divided by 45 skills, or 8 ranks per skill - 4 ranks per skill, for skills that are cross-classed, or - thus - he'd just be a dabbler in those skills.  Of course, there are about 10x as many skills counting the other publications as compared to the base 45 in the PH, so our fighter has a lot more skills than these he must choose from.)    Quite true.  My answer to the Supplement Glut is ... simply ... to allow it.  That's a personal philosophy, a personal thing, only.  I'm not suggesting anyone else should have to do it that way.  I'm saying it works for me, and it *might* work for others.    Well put.  But the players are, in the end, my friends.  My job as DM, the point of my being DM, is to help faciliate them having fun.  If they wish to use these feats and skills, if they consider this fun, I would not deny them such access.  (I would caution them, though, that as a balancing mechanism I might give some of this Goodness to the Monsters, and they might thus be facing some serious nastiness in their encounters.)    *** Monty Cook said this?  Monte Cook said that 20 to 24 feats were 'too many' ?  I have the utmost respect for Monty Cook.  Could you elaborate on what he said?  Could you explain in detail everything he said?  I wish to hear it. ***     I would ... never ... use the word 'crazy' in the same sentence as any sentence in which I described any concept or any person in relation to anything related to gaming.  Yes, a player could eventually obtain your '2 supplements' worth of feats.  But whether this would be a disaster, or a blessing, is the question.  I believe it could be both ... BUT I believe it could be a blessing, and for this reason I advocate such a system.    With Possibilities come pitfalls.  The more Possibilities, the more potential pitfalls.  This is my opinion.  It is also my opinion that Possibility justifies the Risk.    I do not agree.  I believe the 1E approach can still work.  The spirit of that approach can still work.  My opinion.  I would cite Castles and Crusades as proof that the spirit of 1E is still alive and well, to make my case.    I really do approve of this.  Cheers to Pathfinder.    Since Pathfinder has fewer starting feats than 3rd Edition, and skills are cheaper to buy, perhaps my 4x starting point bonus (ala 8 for fighters x Prime Requisite, 32 for rogues x Prime Requisite) is not needed as badly.    I feel they are important from a roleplaying point of view.  And from the point of view of creating a 'whole' character.  This is a personal take on my part, a personal view.  Even if they are not used, the player knows his character has them.    Player Characters, in my opinion, are special.  They may have once been ordinary, but they are now special.    Why?  Mostly events beyond their control:  background, training, experiences, exposure to special insights, exposure to magic, influenced by magic or psionics, extraordinary encounters and influences.  And because they have fought and suffered, trained and dedicated themselves, for years on end, to being special.  So, they have a range of talents (feats and skills) not seen in more ordinary beings, more ordinary people.  (consider the 'generic classes' in the 3E DMG, which assumes lesser training, that these 'generic classes' are more ordinary, and they are considerably weaker versions of the main classes.)    Special point here.  I would not consider someone to be a 'professional' in anything, until they had 15 ranks in something (regardless of stat bonuses.)  Thus, a person who wanted to be a 'professional' violinist AND a 'professional' flutist would have to spend 30 skill points (in Pathfinder) or up to 60 skill points cross class (in 3E) to pull off this stunt.  I AGREE with you on this.  Being a *true professional* in multiple professions would be a truly astonishing feat, difficult to believe.  A character could do it, but even a player character - as special as player characters ARE - would have to invest a lot of time and effort to do so (such as becoming a professional violinist and flutist.)  A 'true' professional, in my book, is one who has 20 skill ranks in a Profession.  Thus, 40 skill points in Pathfinder, or up to 80 in 3E D&D.  That's a lot of skill points.  I don't believe in giving THIS kind of thing away for free!  In my system, the rogue, if she had an 18 dexterity, would start the game with an astounding 128 skill points (32 x 4.)   But she cannot spend 40 of these points to become a 'true professional' in multiple fields!!  She can only take 4 ranks (her level +3) in each.  She may be 'good' at a lot of things (a rogue should be) and 'dabble' in a huge number of things (a rogue would) but a true professional in multiple fields?  Let's see how she spends her 32 points per level after 1st.  If she insists on having multiple professions at 15th level, she is going to suffer in other skills she should have been good in.     I'll explain that point now.  Does she have Knowledge, Local, 15 ranks?  She should.  Does she have Knowledge, Regional, 15 ranks?  She should.  Knowledge, World, 15 ranks?  She should, as a 15th level rogue!  Local history?  Regional history?  World history?  Ancient history?  How about knowledge, flora?  Fauna?  Geography?  World flora?  World fauna?  World geography?  Hydrological flora?  Hydrological fauna?  What about other worlds and planes?  What about Wildspace?  Isn't she well travelled?  What about Planar Knowledge?  Outsider Knowledge?  Undead Knowledge?  15 ranks in those?  Faerie Lore?  Magical Creature Lore?  15 ranks in those?  A rogue of high level should know about all this stuff.    If the rogue has 15 ranks in spot, search, hide, and move silently, that's wonderful.  But how is she to spot, search, hide, or move silently when she doesn't know what's out there?  What's over that hill?  What happened in this place long ago?  What happened in that area recently?  What monsters live in that area?  What magical beings and monsters might (or might not) exist in this area?  Whether that dungeon is reputedly full of treasure, or whether it was ransacked?  Or whether it is there at all (since the King is hiding all traces of it's existence, and a few special loyalists of his maintain the secret by force.)  Moving silently is great, but what if the grimlocks off the path are completely harmless ... so long as the party stays *on* the path (because the druids command them, and the King and the druids reached a truce.)  Will the party know this?  Will the rogue know this?  Or will she blunder her group into a deathtrap, because they were a hundred miles from home and did not know something known to the most simple person in the local area?  And if a carrion crawler is approaching at night, and it is accompanied by a swarm of others, and the rogue sees the first one appear in the torchlight while her party is sleeping, will she know what it is?  Will she then do the appropriate thing (such as waking her party and telling them to RUN) ?  Or wake them, while curiously watching the little critters, and finding out the hard way what they are and what they can do?  Knowledge is power, some say.  I think the rogue would agree with me.  But there are many knowledge skills, and it is expensive to take ranks in a lot of such skills.  The rogue DOES need to place points in spot, search, hide, move silently, and other class skills, and if she wants to know about things, in these as well.  It is a choice she must make.  If she wishes to spend vast numbers of points on *professions* as well, she will have far fewer points to spend on *knowledge* skills.  It is a compromise the rogue - and everyone else - must make, whether they have a few skill points, or a lot of skill points, to spend.    (blinks)  Irrelevant question to me.  This is a discussion of low level characters.  High level characters have transcendant powers and abilities that dwarf anything being discussed here, concerning a mere few feats and skills.    Can you explain a Signature Move more clearly?  I'm vague on the concept.      I *do* know players who would love to deal with 30, or 40, or 50 feats.  Or 100 feats.  I would not call it silly.  Nor would they.    Not in my opinion.  A *superheroic* campaign assumes the characters, from the start, are capable of committing feats far beyond anything within human possibility, such as with the Fantastic Four.  The feat and skill system within Pathfinder and D&D, these concern themselves with merely human feats.  You have to get to Epic Feats before you get into the Ripley's Believe It Or Not category, and way into them before you get into the Superheroic.  No matter *how many* feats you had in Pathfinder or D&D, at low level, you could not duplicate Superheroics.  You could not do it, if you had every single feat available to 1st level characters out of all 110 pages in Crystalkeep.  You could not even come close.  Or, in short, when your character has a Balance of 70 and can walk on water, as a Balance DC check, THEN you are into Superheroics.  But being able to balance on a tightrope, falls within mere normal human capabilities.    Can someone clarify this?  You 'swap out' as in, say, dropping Dodge from the feat path, and taking Whirlwind Attack (you already have Mobility and Spring Attack) and you just ... drop the Dodge, lose it's benefits, but keep all the later feats in the feat chain anyways, and can gain new ones?  Is this what you are saying can be done, in Pathfinder?    It is not an April Fool's joke.  Nor is it ludicrious.  If I and my players use it, and we agree that it is fun and reasonable - and we all do - then it is reasonable.</blockquote>

Verification