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<blockquote data-quote="Silveras" data-source="post: 2780480" data-attributes="member: 6271">I think you are looking at them the wrong way. It sounds like you are looking at them as enablers - something needed to even try some of those maneuvers. They are not (or at least not all are). Many (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush) reduce the penalties for specific attacks. Those attacks are often &quot;niche&quot; maneuvers. Most people get more punch from Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization; if nothing else, the greater attack bonuses serve to make the penalties for the more esoteric attacks less painful, and the benefits are available to all attacks. Really, for more specialized roles, a whole new class built around that concept makes more sense (see the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior for a lightly-armored &quot;stunt&quot; combatant), or a Prestige class that specializes the character in one of those roles.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Silveras, post: 2780480, member: 6271"] I think you are looking at them the wrong way. It sounds like you are looking at them as enablers - something needed to even try some of those maneuvers. They are not (or at least not all are). Many (Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush) reduce the penalties for specific attacks. Those attacks are often "niche" maneuvers. Most people get more punch from Power Attack + Cleave + Great Cleave + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization + Greater Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Specialization; if nothing else, the greater attack bonuses serve to make the penalties for the more esoteric attacks less painful, and the benefits are available to all attacks. Really, for more specialized roles, a whole new class built around that concept makes more sense (see the Swashbuckler in Complete Warrior for a lightly-armored "stunt" combatant), or a Prestige class that specializes the character in one of those roles. [/QUOTE]

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