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<blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 2781596" data-attributes="member: 2020">I'll read the posts above in a moment.&nbsp; I wanted to make another comment first.&nbsp; &nbsp; Whoever thought up the interlocking rules of 3rd edition was a genius.&nbsp; Someone I know believes they consulted with an army specialist and a psychologist in the process of writing them.&nbsp; I'm inclined to agree ... and the person who said that, meant it as a compliment.&nbsp; Imagine the rules of 3.5 were sentient and took an avatar form (let's say, a celestial.)&nbsp; And that avatar had a talk with a player of 3.5.&nbsp; &nbsp; The Rules of 3.5:&nbsp; Hello there.&nbsp; The Player:&nbsp; Hello, indeed.&nbsp; The Rules:&nbsp; Do you like your 1st level character?&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; My character sucks.&nbsp; He can't do anything.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Did you do your best to build him?&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Uh ...&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Laziness will get you nowhere.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Actually, I worked very hard building him.&nbsp; But he's good at only one thing.&nbsp; He sucks at everything else.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; That's my doing.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; WHY?!&nbsp; It's stupid.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Because, your character must now rely on the other characters to survive the adventure. &nbsp; Player:&nbsp; That sucks.&nbsp; I want my character to be self-sufficient.&nbsp; There's nothing wrong with being self-sufficient.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Being self-sufficient is fine, but not in a multi-player D&amp;D game.&nbsp; If you are self-sufficient, you are not required to cooperate with the other players.&nbsp; And then, you won't cooperate with the other players.&nbsp; And then, there is no game.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; But I am self disciplined, and trained in cooperation with others.&nbsp; I appreciate the value of cooperation!&nbsp; I don't need you to force me to cooperate!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Yes I do.&nbsp; You may be altruistic, but you have human failings like everyone else.&nbsp; And your character is not you, and may not be inclined to cooperate at all, if you roleplay him correctly.&nbsp; And look at the people around you:&nbsp; are they all willing to cooperate as much as you, as altruistic as you, and as self-disciplined as you?&nbsp; Or do they tend to bicker, fight, be lazy and non-productive, or otherwise not contribute to the team?&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Well ...&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; It is not enough for you to be willing to voluntarily cooperate.&nbsp; I am here to enforce cooperation.&nbsp; And if you do not cooperate, everyone in the group dies.&nbsp; &nbsp; Player:&nbsp; You're like a bloody drill sargeant ...&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; Live with it.&nbsp; You must cooperate.&nbsp; You don't cooperate or are lazy, everyone dies because you didn't pull your weight.&nbsp; But likewise THEY must cooperate with you, respect you, and honor your efforts.&nbsp; If they don't, they - and you - will all pay.&nbsp; I will make sure of it.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Hey, I don't have to live with that.&nbsp; When I get to high level, I'll be self-sufficient, and I won't need to cooperate with anyone!&nbsp; And you can stuff it!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; When you get to high level, you can be self-sufficient ... against low level opponents.&nbsp; You can fight orcs all you want, all day.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; And I will!&nbsp; And I will gain levels, and I won't need anyone's help.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Wrong.&nbsp; When you are high level, if you do not face a foe of equal challenge, you will gain little or NO experience.&nbsp; Your orcs will grant NO experience, even if you kill them by the thousands.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; That's ridiculous.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; That's how it is.&nbsp; If you want to continue gaining experience and levels, you must face encounters that will force you to continue to rely on your fellow adventurers:&nbsp; failure to cooperate will bear the same penalties.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; But my character will be high level!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; But the same result will apply:&nbsp; if you do not pull your weight, or argue, or do not do your best, the party will die.&nbsp; Your character will die.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Wait until my character is Epic Level.&nbsp; THEN he'll overcome your restrictions.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Wrong.&nbsp; No matter how high in level you become - even if you become 1,000th level - you will still be required to cooperate, pull your weight, do your best, not fight, not argue, not disrupt, and otherwise be the best player you can be.&nbsp; Because if you refuse to be all these things, I will make a point of killing your character and all his companions.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; But what about the Gestalt.&nbsp; THAT makes my character powerful relative to the challenges.&nbsp; He's first level, but double the power against a DC 1 Encounter.&nbsp; Haha, found a way around you!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; No, you did not.&nbsp; Gestalt rules are for parties with fewer than 4 characters ... the fighter, mage, rogue, and cleric.&nbsp; The man who caries the ammo, the man who carries the weapons, the man who carries the water, and the man who carries the food:&nbsp; now, one or more of them is missing.&nbsp; Such a group could not survive on it's own, so Gestalt steps in and rectifies this.&nbsp; In a 4 player game, you probably will not be allowed to play Gestalt.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Who says?!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; The DM says.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Well, I can influence the DM into doing what I want.&nbsp; He can change you to suit himself!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Yes, the DM can change me.&nbsp; But if he does, he risks wrecking the game for everyone.&nbsp; That includes you, Mister.&nbsp; No game means no fun, no advancement, no anything for you.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; What if I play one on one.&nbsp; THEN I would need to be self-sufficient.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Yes you would.&nbsp; But such a situation is rare, since D&amp;D is a group game.&nbsp; In such a rare situation, special exceptions to myself can be made, on a one-time basis.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; And then I can take my self-sufficient character back into a multiplayer game!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Forget it.&nbsp; That character is permanently restricted to one player games.&nbsp; I have instructed all the DMs to forbid it in multiplayer games ... because it would lessen the mandatory compulsion I enforce to cooperate and perform out of all the players.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; Well, I'll find a way around you somehow!&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; I hope not, since that will merely destroy the game.&nbsp; And then nobody, especially not you, will have any fun.&nbsp; You will have wasted what little free time you had, when time is precious to you, and all for naught.&nbsp; &nbsp; Player:&nbsp; What about 2nd Edition.&nbsp; Back then, alpha males shone and dominated, many players sat back and did nothing, people argued and fought, rogues stole from the party, and everyone still survived.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; I was not around back then.&nbsp; Had *I* been around, I would have killed all their characters forthright.&nbsp; Death is the penalty for argumentative characters, characters who refuse to be a part of the team at all times, and for parties who refuse to honor and value all of their members.&nbsp; And there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS made, by me, to this reality.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; The DM would prevent you from killing them all.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; Not even the DM could save them.&nbsp; I am too well entrenched, and my requirements are too stringent and absolute.&nbsp; If the DM forcibly altered me enough that they would have survived, the game would have collapsed, which is effective death for the characters in itself.&nbsp; Either way, whether they die in-game or because the game collapsed, they die.&nbsp; Player:&nbsp; You are too harsh.&nbsp; Rules:&nbsp; I am not harsh at all, merely relentless.&nbsp; Relentless, about creating an atmosphere where all the players can enjoy themselves equally.&nbsp; And you will live with me ... or play another game.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Edena_of_Neith, post: 2781596, member: 2020"] I'll read the posts above in a moment. I wanted to make another comment first. Whoever thought up the interlocking rules of 3rd edition was a genius. Someone I know believes they consulted with an army specialist and a psychologist in the process of writing them. I'm inclined to agree ... and the person who said that, meant it as a compliment. Imagine the rules of 3.5 were sentient and took an avatar form (let's say, a celestial.) And that avatar had a talk with a player of 3.5. The Rules of 3.5: Hello there. The Player: Hello, indeed. The Rules: Do you like your 1st level character? Player: My character sucks. He can't do anything. Rules: Did you do your best to build him? Player: Uh ... Rules: Laziness will get you nowhere. Player: Actually, I worked very hard building him. But he's good at only one thing. He sucks at everything else. Rules: That's my doing. Player: WHY?! It's stupid. Rules: Because, your character must now rely on the other characters to survive the adventure. Player: That sucks. I want my character to be self-sufficient. There's nothing wrong with being self-sufficient. Rules: Being self-sufficient is fine, but not in a multi-player D&D game. If you are self-sufficient, you are not required to cooperate with the other players. And then, you won't cooperate with the other players. And then, there is no game. Player: But I am self disciplined, and trained in cooperation with others. I appreciate the value of cooperation! I don't need you to force me to cooperate! Rules: Yes I do. You may be altruistic, but you have human failings like everyone else. And your character is not you, and may not be inclined to cooperate at all, if you roleplay him correctly. And look at the people around you: are they all willing to cooperate as much as you, as altruistic as you, and as self-disciplined as you? Or do they tend to bicker, fight, be lazy and non-productive, or otherwise not contribute to the team? Player: Well ... Rules: It is not enough for you to be willing to voluntarily cooperate. I am here to enforce cooperation. And if you do not cooperate, everyone in the group dies. Player: You're like a bloody drill sargeant ... Rules: Yes. Live with it. You must cooperate. You don't cooperate or are lazy, everyone dies because you didn't pull your weight. But likewise THEY must cooperate with you, respect you, and honor your efforts. If they don't, they - and you - will all pay. I will make sure of it. Player: Hey, I don't have to live with that. When I get to high level, I'll be self-sufficient, and I won't need to cooperate with anyone! And you can stuff it! Rules: When you get to high level, you can be self-sufficient ... against low level opponents. You can fight orcs all you want, all day. Player: And I will! And I will gain levels, and I won't need anyone's help. Rules: Wrong. When you are high level, if you do not face a foe of equal challenge, you will gain little or NO experience. Your orcs will grant NO experience, even if you kill them by the thousands. Player: That's ridiculous. Rules: That's how it is. If you want to continue gaining experience and levels, you must face encounters that will force you to continue to rely on your fellow adventurers: failure to cooperate will bear the same penalties. Player: But my character will be high level! Rules: But the same result will apply: if you do not pull your weight, or argue, or do not do your best, the party will die. Your character will die. Player: Wait until my character is Epic Level. THEN he'll overcome your restrictions. Rules: Wrong. No matter how high in level you become - even if you become 1,000th level - you will still be required to cooperate, pull your weight, do your best, not fight, not argue, not disrupt, and otherwise be the best player you can be. Because if you refuse to be all these things, I will make a point of killing your character and all his companions. Player: But what about the Gestalt. THAT makes my character powerful relative to the challenges. He's first level, but double the power against a DC 1 Encounter. Haha, found a way around you! Rules: No, you did not. Gestalt rules are for parties with fewer than 4 characters ... the fighter, mage, rogue, and cleric. The man who caries the ammo, the man who carries the weapons, the man who carries the water, and the man who carries the food: now, one or more of them is missing. Such a group could not survive on it's own, so Gestalt steps in and rectifies this. In a 4 player game, you probably will not be allowed to play Gestalt. Player: Who says?! Rules: The DM says. Player: Well, I can influence the DM into doing what I want. He can change you to suit himself! Rules: Yes, the DM can change me. But if he does, he risks wrecking the game for everyone. That includes you, Mister. No game means no fun, no advancement, no anything for you. Player: What if I play one on one. THEN I would need to be self-sufficient. Rules: Yes you would. But such a situation is rare, since D&D is a group game. In such a rare situation, special exceptions to myself can be made, on a one-time basis. Player: Yes. And then I can take my self-sufficient character back into a multiplayer game! Rules: Forget it. That character is permanently restricted to one player games. I have instructed all the DMs to forbid it in multiplayer games ... because it would lessen the mandatory compulsion I enforce to cooperate and perform out of all the players. Player: Well, I'll find a way around you somehow! Rules: I hope not, since that will merely destroy the game. And then nobody, especially not you, will have any fun. You will have wasted what little free time you had, when time is precious to you, and all for naught. Player: What about 2nd Edition. Back then, alpha males shone and dominated, many players sat back and did nothing, people argued and fought, rogues stole from the party, and everyone still survived. Rules: I was not around back then. Had *I* been around, I would have killed all their characters forthright. Death is the penalty for argumentative characters, characters who refuse to be a part of the team at all times, and for parties who refuse to honor and value all of their members. And there ARE NO EXCEPTIONS made, by me, to this reality. Player: The DM would prevent you from killing them all. Rules: Not even the DM could save them. I am too well entrenched, and my requirements are too stringent and absolute. If the DM forcibly altered me enough that they would have survived, the game would have collapsed, which is effective death for the characters in itself. Either way, whether they die in-game or because the game collapsed, they die. Player: You are too harsh. Rules: I am not harsh at all, merely relentless. Relentless, about creating an atmosphere where all the players can enjoy themselves equally. And you will live with me ... or play another game. [/QUOTE]

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