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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Edena_of_Neith" data-source="post: 2795856" data-attributes="member: 2020">I realize that worldwide playtesting of 3rd edition went on for many years before 3rd edition was released.  I realize a truly tremendous amount of thought and effort went into 3rd edition.  I respect that.    I appreciate the 25 Point Buy system.  I'm just retaining a concept from another time:  the 4d6 roll system.  It does affect balance (that is, the chance for each player to have a fair chance at an equal share of the fun) and thus it must be considered carefully.   You would not want one player doing a point buy of 25, and let a second player roll 4d6, obviously.  A low charisma is just what you said it is:  a handicap.  Unfortunately, everyone I played with in tournament play was all too happy to take this handicap.  An unrealistic POV, in my opinion, but in the tournament charisma rarely came into play (there wasn't time for it to come into play.)  In a campaign in home play, charisma is obviously really going to come into play.  So, unlike tournament play where charisma can be overlooked, the players must consider matters before they leave their charisma at 8.  In my case ... well ... (grins) ... I'm an old fogey on this one.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  This is something so ingrained in me from 20 years of play that it's like breathing.  The 4d6 method is just ingrained.  -  For me, learning 3.5 is like learning a foreign language (although not nearly as hard as learning a foreign language.)  The vocabulary is different (You becomes du, in German.)  The mindset is different (You never say du to someone in German, unless you are very close to them.  You say Sie, or Ihr.)  The way of thinking is different:  I bin, diese Game funf Yahren gelearnen sollen.    A literal translation is:  I should have learned this game 5 years ago.  But the actual translation is:  I am, this game 5 years ago, learned should.  (If that's wrong, I'm sure anyone who really knows his German can correct me, and provide a much better example of the alternate sentence structure and flow of conscious thought, in German, as opposed to English.)  Well, 3.5 is like that.  There is new vocabulary.  To hit becomes BAB.  There are different mindsets.  +5 BAB means 5th level, right?  Yes ... but it means a lot more than that.  It means potential access to Feats, PrCs, possible multiclassing, and a lot more.  And 5th level doesn't mean 5th level fighter necessarily:  it means 5th level character.  There are profoundly different approaches in thinking.  Those 5 orcs on the hillock are not just orcs (THAC0 20, 5 hit points, AC 4, one attack for 1 to 8 points of damage.)  Those orcs could be wizards, clerics, rangers, assassins, arcane tricksters, or polymorphed monsters of some sort with high DCs.    The old illusion spells from 2nd edition (Phantasmal Force, Improved Phantasmal Force, Spectral Force, Advanced Illusion, Permanent Illusion, Programmed Illusion)  allowed you to create a number of monsters equal to your level in hit dice or less.  In addition, you had to have seen the monster to accurately duplicate it, and to duplicate any of it's attacks, you had to be subject to them fully.  But in 3rd edition, such a use of Spectral Force (if you brought that spell forward fully) would be different.  You could, let's say, still create a monster with up to your level in hit dice, if you had seen it, and you could duplicate it's attacks if you had experienced them.  But could you duplicate it's Feats?  It's skills?  It's spell-like abilities?  You do not have those Feats or skills or spell-like abilities yourself.  Perhaps you can:  perhaps the magic is powerful enough to allow this.  Perhaps you cannot:  perhaps the magic is not sufficient.    Note that they did not bring Spectral Force in it's old version forward.  Spectral Force can dupe people into seeing what is not there, but it cannot cause people to fall unconscious, thinking they've been killed by an illusory attack.  But if you DID bring the spell forward, you'd have to translate it ... into a foreign language.  The result might be unbalancing, or not.  I don't know.  The point is, is that you HAVE to translate it into a foreign language.  For me, the attempt to learn the foreign language of 3rd edition is a process of memorization (as with any foreign language), profound astonishment (they CAN'T do that?!  They can do WHAT?!) and outright humor (An orc!  An orc!  Run for your lives!  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  )  I'm guessing that, 5 years ago, all the rest of you went through the same process I'm going through now.  So humor me here.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  I'm not dissing 3rd edition, even when it seems I am.  If I AM going to dis it, I'll say so openly, with no humor attacked.  (grins evilly)</blockquote>

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