Comments, please - alternate wizard specialization system (Hârn)

Erstwhile

First Post
Comments, please - alternate wizard specialization system (Hârn)

I'm working on a conversion of D&D to the HârnWorld setting. (There is a fan-made D20 guide out there but I'm looking explicitly at D&D 3.5, with as few revisions as possible.) While I'm trying to keep as close to the rules-as-written for D&D as possible, I feel that I do need to do some fairly major revisions to wizards and clerics to match the Hârnic "flavour".

This post deals with wizards. (I've removed Sorcerers - there ain't no such animal on Hârn.) These are the basics for the new spell specialization and classification system. I'd appreciate any initial thoughts folks may have.

1) Magic on Hârn is divided into six quasi-elemental Convocations. These are "mental templates" that go beyond the elemental principles themselves; the principle closest to "water" - Odivshe - for instance, also deals with darkness, slowness and cold.

These are:

Lyahvi - light, sound, insubstantiality
Peleahn - fire, smoke, heat, speed
Jmorvi - stone, metal, artifice, craftsmanship
Fyvria - growth, decay, death, natural cycles
Odivshe - water, cold, slowness, darkness
Savorya - thought, concept, emotion, mind

These are set up in a circle (the "Pvaric Wheel"), as follows:

PvaricWheel.jpg


I am in the process of classifying the existing PHB spells into the Convocations. At this point from mid- to high-spell level, the Convocations don't balance - Lyahvi and Savorya tend to have a lot of spells, Odivshe and Jmorvi not so much. Peleahn has the bulk of the big boom spells, much like Evocation in the PHB. However since Druids don't exist on Harn either, I'm liberally raiding the Druid spell list, particularly for spells for Fyvria, Odivshe and Jmorvi. (Jmorvi, in particular, has precious few spells on the Wizard list at higher levels.)

I'm also granting Fyvrians some healing spells, but at higher levels than a comparable Cleric, and they don't have access to the really miraculous spells (like Heal). The spells to create undead have been removed entirely - that's purely in the domain of the God of Death.

2) Every mage is a "specialist" and must choose one Convocation as their speciality. Their Convocation is treated like a speciality in the RAW (extra spell/level/day, +2 to Spellcraft). Wizards cast Neutral spells, and the two Convocations adjacent to their primary Convocation, as per normal for their level. The two Convocations next adjacent on the Wheel are harder to learn and cast - wizards are considered 2 levels lower for the purposes of learning and casting these spells, and have -2 to Spellcraft checks in this regard. The opposed Convocation is tougher still, and a wizard's considered 4 levels lower and suffers -4 to Spellcraft checks for the purposes of learning and casting those spells.

3) There also exists "Neutral" magic which includes anything dealing with extraplanar magic (including all Monster Summoning spells), and with metaspells (Dispel Magic, Read Magic, etc.). I have expanded Neutral magic from Hârnic canon to include spells of "pure force" - Magic Missile, Wall of Force, Shield etc. - as those don't easily mesh with any of the Convocations. Only Grey Magi (see below) are able to research Neutral spells, so other wizards must learn the spells from books or teachers (in other words, you can't add a Neutral spell to your spellbook automatically upon gaining a level). At higher spell levels, there are a lot of Neutral spells, which given the background may not be a bad thing. (Encourages folks to become Grey Magi!)

4) The Grey Magi are a five-level prestige class. To become a Grey Mage you must know a certain number (not sure yet) of spells from all six Convocations, as well as a certain number of Neutral spells (including a high-level spell - not sure which level yet - called "Grey Metamorphosis" that begins the attunement to Neutral magic). There are a couple of other criteria that are more setting-specific. Once you become a Grey Mage, you begin to break down your attunement to a particular Convocation; once you complete the Grey Mage career you treat Neutral spells as your primary "Convocation", and can cast spells from all Convocations as normal for your level.

5) Just so non-Grey Magi don't feel left out, there will be a Prestige Class (Grandmaster) that allows greater ability and focus for high-level members of each Convocation as well.

----------------------------

So...what d'you think?
 

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It sounds like you have a pretty hefty task ahead of you. You're obviously well invested in the material - well enough to know what should & should not go. What are the brands of Clerical magic you have in this setting? If part of your concern is the distribution of magic, and as Li Shenron once pointed out, all "magic" is "magic" - the difference between Arcane & Divine is who casts it - then the first thing I would suggest is:

- Forget all differentiations. Treat all spells as possibly available. In Clerical domains you already have a whole bunch of clean lines among the domains which could possibly be modified to fit easily into your system without reinventing the wheel.

- Stupid wheel!

- With only 9 schools of magic, I concede where getting them to fit would be difficult. Splitting them up is ALSO difficult. Some spells may also bleed over; qualify as both one AND the other.

Some initial thoughts.
 

Thia Halmades said:
What are the brands of Clerical magic you have in this setting?

Pretty standard D&D-style polytheism. Ten gods (I've added an eleventh - "promoting" a canon demigod) with a variety of portfolios. I'm leaving Clerical magic pretty much as is, except that instead of being able to convert a spell to a healing or inflict harm spell, you convert to a Domain spell. But I'm not going to fiddle with their spell lists in the same way as I have with the Wizards, because the Domains allow for enough specialization IMO. Though I may remove certain spells from the common spell list, leaving, for example, Healing spells as the exclusive domain of Clerics with the Healing Domain. ("Hi, I'm a Cleric of Agrik, god of War, Fire and Destruction. Heal you up a bit there?" - no, not so much. ;) )

The Clerics themselves are getting a bit of a makeover - Clerics of different Gods will have different weapon/armour proficiencies, Feats, and special abilities (Turn Undead is not a class ability of Harnic Clerics) but that won't have a major impact on their magic.

If part of your concern is the distribution of magic, and as Li Shenron once pointed out, all "magic" is "magic" - the difference between Arcane & Divine is who casts it

Always a concern. :)

- Forget all differentiations. Treat all spells as possibly available. In Clerical domains you already have a whole bunch of clean lines among the domains which could possibly be modified to fit easily into your system without reinventing the wheel.

Sure. That's a possibility too - there's already substantial overlap between Cleric, Druid, and Wiz/Sor spell lists.

- Stupid wheel!

You think so? :( For me it's one of my favourite aspects of the setting! But then my first Harnic character was a wizard. :cool:

With only 9 schools of magic, I concede where getting them to fit would be difficult. Splitting them up is ALSO difficult. Some spells may also bleed over; qualify as both one AND the other.

Yes. And I don't have a huge problem with that - D&D already has the syndrome of, as you've mentioned, "the only difference in magic is who casts it", so I don't really object to spells from different Convocations having similar effects - they'll just be based on different underlying "logic" (e.g. speeding up metabolic processes - Fyvrian (life) or Peleahn (heat, speed)? Or both?)

Some initial thoughts.

And thanks for them!
 

Erstwhile said:
You think so? :( For me it's one of my favourite aspects of the setting! But then my first Harnic character was a wizard. :cool:

I believe he was referring to the stupid wheel in need of reinventing, not your wheel. You wheel is not stupid at all.

:D

DC
 

DreamChaser said:
I believe he was referring to the stupid wheel in need of reinventing, not your wheel. You wheel is not stupid at all.

:D

DC


Oops. :confused: :o :D

Actually, more seriously, my main concern in all of this is point #2 - the penalties for learning/casting spells the farther you go down the Wheel. The, er, magical wheel. Not the stupid one. :p In normal D&D, specialists have to choose one or more schools that are actually forbidden. Here, two are somewhat penalized, and one is more severely penalized. What do folks think about those penalties - too stiff? Too easy? I don't want to outright forbid any of the Convocations as part of becoming a Grey Mage is to learn to use all Convocations.
 

The wheel is SO STUPID... (pause)

"How stupid is it?!"

The wheel is SO STUPID that it confused Erstwhile while only being mentioned twice!

STUPID WHEEL! Maybe I will reinvent that puppy... that'll show 'em...

I'm actually referring to the wheel which doesn't need reinventing. Your wheel isn't stupid at all. Thanks, DC, for popping that in there. The concept of a six way magic division seems perfectly groovy to me, and I've been racking my brain for ways to have this make sense. One of the things I was considering doing to Clerics (that's particularly cruel) is entirely limiting their spell selection from "everything" to "your Domains + X, where X cannot include barred domains." But the task is extremely daunting and I don't want to be the guy who flipped Clerics from being one of the most powerful classes to one of the least. Bleh.

I'm a staunch supported of the Spon. Cast. Domain crew, although my players freak when I mention it. Are you saying that there are going to be an entire branch of Clerics who can't heal? Creepy. I wonder if anyone will play one. Actually, I more actively wonder who wouldn't play one, just for the variety. But playing a Cleric without heals would feel way more like an abjurer than a Cleric.

What I'm really having difficulty reconciling is the actual division of magic without completely rewriting the system and getting into a bunch of mechanics arguments. But hey, that's me. In answer to your question, I think you way makes more sense than any other way I've seen, although I might make the penalties a little steeper, the concept is in fact superior to simply saying "No, you can't have it." That may make it's way into a campaign of mine at some point, but then I'd need an Octagon or some such. ;-)
 

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