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Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part IX: Paladin)
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8800612" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>Well, the person you replied to explicitly did. But let's take a look at the Oath of the Ancients Paladin as a "soft multiclass," presumably with Druid or Ranger?</p><p></p><p>Ancients gives the following features:</p><p>Bonus spells, which I guess technically kind of qualify? I don't <em>like</em> that Paladins cast spells at all, but yeah, I guess that counts.</p><p>Nature's Wrath. Not actually all that nature-y, since as someone said earlier it can be reflavored trivially. One can argue Vengeance is as good, capturing the idea of the predator stalking its prey (and several of its spells are Ranger and/or Druid.)</p><p>Turn the Faithless. Not really sure why fey (who seem to be <em>allies</em> to Rangers and Druids) are on there; you'd think it would be <em>undead</em> and fiends.</p><p>Spell damage resist aura. Seems pretty unrelated to nature to me. As noted, Vengeance's feature (Relentless Avenger) seems more fitting in a predator-and-prey way.</p><p>Undying Sentinel is a <em>Barbarian</em> feature, nothing Rangery or Druidy here.</p><p>Elder Champion: Again, nothing nature-y other than the flavor, and <em>maybe</em> the regen...?</p><p></p><p>Hence why I don't get the "soft multiclass" thing. Ancients has lots of vaguely nature-y fluff text and some Druid/Ranger spells, but fluff text seems no more significant than Background ribbons (IMO much less so). Several features don't seem all that Nature-y at all (Turn, aura). Plus, it seems like Vengeance can be just as good for capturing that "nature-y" feel, and also grants a number of "nature-y" spells, albeit like two less than Ancients gets.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, very simply put...not using magic.</p><p></p><p>The fact that the Warlord <em>did not cast spells</em>, but was still inspiring, granting attacks, providing actual healing (if, often, less than what a Cleric could do), repositioning, buffing, and all of that* while still being productive and enjoyable in its own right, was a huge part of the draw. Any "solution" to the Warlord that requires casting spells is an instant no-go for most Warlord fans. I am reminded of the honestly kind of cringe-worthy advice I saw on another forum where someone suggested that the best Pathfinder class for Hercules was clearly the <em>Oracle</em>, a <em>full spellcaster</em>, because of its curse-that-can-also-be-a-benefit feature.</p><p></p><p>*Note, not absolutely all of that every single turn. You had two basic heals per encounter, though those depended on the target having Healing Surges left to power them (imagine if every <em>cure wounds</em> or <em>healing word</em> actually required a Hit Die be expended in order to gain any HP, and people started with 5-8 hit dice depending on class but very rarely gained more.) This basic heal, "Inspiring Word," was in 5e terms a "bonus action," so you could use it <em>and</em> do something impactful/productive at the same time. And since it was an Encounter power, you could use it twice in <em>every fight</em>. You might use a Daily and Inspiring Word on the same turn, dishing out some real pain or setting up your allies to obliterate an enemy, while <em>also</em> saving a friend's bacon.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8800612, member: 6790260"] Well, the person you replied to explicitly did. But let's take a look at the Oath of the Ancients Paladin as a "soft multiclass," presumably with Druid or Ranger? Ancients gives the following features: Bonus spells, which I guess technically kind of qualify? I don't [I]like[/I] that Paladins cast spells at all, but yeah, I guess that counts. Nature's Wrath. Not actually all that nature-y, since as someone said earlier it can be reflavored trivially. One can argue Vengeance is as good, capturing the idea of the predator stalking its prey (and several of its spells are Ranger and/or Druid.) Turn the Faithless. Not really sure why fey (who seem to be [I]allies[/I] to Rangers and Druids) are on there; you'd think it would be [I]undead[/I] and fiends. Spell damage resist aura. Seems pretty unrelated to nature to me. As noted, Vengeance's feature (Relentless Avenger) seems more fitting in a predator-and-prey way. Undying Sentinel is a [I]Barbarian[/I] feature, nothing Rangery or Druidy here. Elder Champion: Again, nothing nature-y other than the flavor, and [I]maybe[/I] the regen...? Hence why I don't get the "soft multiclass" thing. Ancients has lots of vaguely nature-y fluff text and some Druid/Ranger spells, but fluff text seems no more significant than Background ribbons (IMO much less so). Several features don't seem all that Nature-y at all (Turn, aura). Plus, it seems like Vengeance can be just as good for capturing that "nature-y" feel, and also grants a number of "nature-y" spells, albeit like two less than Ancients gets. Well, very simply put...not using magic. The fact that the Warlord [I]did not cast spells[/I], but was still inspiring, granting attacks, providing actual healing (if, often, less than what a Cleric could do), repositioning, buffing, and all of that* while still being productive and enjoyable in its own right, was a huge part of the draw. Any "solution" to the Warlord that requires casting spells is an instant no-go for most Warlord fans. I am reminded of the honestly kind of cringe-worthy advice I saw on another forum where someone suggested that the best Pathfinder class for Hercules was clearly the [I]Oracle[/I], a [I]full spellcaster[/I], because of its curse-that-can-also-be-a-benefit feature. *Note, not absolutely all of that every single turn. You had two basic heals per encounter, though those depended on the target having Healing Surges left to power them (imagine if every [I]cure wounds[/I] or [I]healing word[/I] actually required a Hit Die be expended in order to gain any HP, and people started with 5-8 hit dice depending on class but very rarely gained more.) This basic heal, "Inspiring Word," was in 5e terms a "bonus action," so you could use it [I]and[/I] do something impactful/productive at the same time. And since it was an Encounter power, you could use it twice in [I]every fight[/I]. You might use a Daily and Inspiring Word on the same turn, dishing out some real pain or setting up your allies to obliterate an enemy, while [I]also[/I] saving a friend's bacon. [/QUOTE]
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