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Companion thread to 5E Survivor - Subclasses (Part IX: Paladin)
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8802005" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>You'd be a decidedly off-brand Oath of Devotion Paladin playing one as evil. If its the fluff you're going for then note all the words about "The loftiest ideals..."</p><p></p><p>As for singling out the mechanics I'd be surprised to see the following mechanics on an evil paladin based in large part on D&D history:</p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Turn the Unholy; traditionally D&D has gone for good = turning, evil = commanding</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Spell known: Sanctuary. This sort of protective spell rarely shows up thematically on evil characters</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Zone of Truth: While I have a lot of respect for Neil Gaiman's rebuttal of "always telling the truth would make for a better world" it is nevertheless normal to associate goodness with truth and evil with lies. And it's <em>definitely</em> lawful.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Lesser Restoration: Again healing and cursebreaking is normally associated with goodness</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Beacon of Hope again feels very much like a good aligned spell.</li> </ul><p>So yes, everyone knows that Lucifer was an angel. This doesn't somehow change angelic iconography to be evil. It just makes it possible. Likewise the Devotion paladin is set up in a number of ways as both lawful and good in ways e.g. the Oath of Glory isn't. Frankly if you're calling this "blander than unflavoured oatmeal" I'd suggest you take a lateral flow test.</p><p></p><p>For that matter your mechanical criticisms can be levelled at the Oath of Redemption which has as its only clearly good feature its aura. "Emissary of Peace" for example is exactly the skill you'd need to whip up an angry mob with pitchforks and torches and its abilities like sleep and hold person are great for kidnappers.</p><p></p><p>Except that it's Paladin, Good and Pure - which is a whole lot of flavour in its own right. And the Champion Fighter is also mechanically useless while not doing anything thematically the Battlemaster doesn't so is redundant while the Berserker will get you killed so is worse than useless. Putting the Oath of Devotion Paladin into the same category as those two is sheer nonsense; those two are two of the four worst subclasses in the game (alongside the PHB Beast Master for turning your game into an escort mission and the Four Elements Monk for having its abilities be so overcosted that in practice most people are going to be stronger without a subclass).</p><p></p><p>Am I saying that the Oath of Devotion Paladin is <em>great?</em> Not in the slightest. It's average. Mechanically it's functional with some flavour to the mechanics. Flavour-wise it has a definite niche by being the "classic" paladin especially when the other two are the Warden-inspired Ancients and the "burn it down" probably not good Oath of Vengeance. Can things be done to improve it? Yes, definitely. I'm not claiming it's above average either mechanically or thematically. But does it have a thematic niche? Yes. The "classic D&D" paladin (which only looked good compared to older classes). Does it execute mechanically? To a non-trivial extent, yes</p><p></p><p>... is this entire rant just about the name Oath of Devotion and a complaint that it is not, as you suggest, the Oath of Righteousness? Are you writing paragraphs and screeds about a single word in the name?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 8802005, member: 87792"] You'd be a decidedly off-brand Oath of Devotion Paladin playing one as evil. If its the fluff you're going for then note all the words about "The loftiest ideals..." As for singling out the mechanics I'd be surprised to see the following mechanics on an evil paladin based in large part on D&D history: [LIST] [*]Turn the Unholy; traditionally D&D has gone for good = turning, evil = commanding [*]Spell known: Sanctuary. This sort of protective spell rarely shows up thematically on evil characters [*]Zone of Truth: While I have a lot of respect for Neil Gaiman's rebuttal of "always telling the truth would make for a better world" it is nevertheless normal to associate goodness with truth and evil with lies. And it's [I]definitely[/I] lawful. [*]Lesser Restoration: Again healing and cursebreaking is normally associated with goodness [*]Beacon of Hope again feels very much like a good aligned spell. [/LIST] So yes, everyone knows that Lucifer was an angel. This doesn't somehow change angelic iconography to be evil. It just makes it possible. Likewise the Devotion paladin is set up in a number of ways as both lawful and good in ways e.g. the Oath of Glory isn't. Frankly if you're calling this "blander than unflavoured oatmeal" I'd suggest you take a lateral flow test. For that matter your mechanical criticisms can be levelled at the Oath of Redemption which has as its only clearly good feature its aura. "Emissary of Peace" for example is exactly the skill you'd need to whip up an angry mob with pitchforks and torches and its abilities like sleep and hold person are great for kidnappers. Except that it's Paladin, Good and Pure - which is a whole lot of flavour in its own right. And the Champion Fighter is also mechanically useless while not doing anything thematically the Battlemaster doesn't so is redundant while the Berserker will get you killed so is worse than useless. Putting the Oath of Devotion Paladin into the same category as those two is sheer nonsense; those two are two of the four worst subclasses in the game (alongside the PHB Beast Master for turning your game into an escort mission and the Four Elements Monk for having its abilities be so overcosted that in practice most people are going to be stronger without a subclass). Am I saying that the Oath of Devotion Paladin is [I]great?[/I] Not in the slightest. It's average. Mechanically it's functional with some flavour to the mechanics. Flavour-wise it has a definite niche by being the "classic" paladin especially when the other two are the Warden-inspired Ancients and the "burn it down" probably not good Oath of Vengeance. Can things be done to improve it? Yes, definitely. I'm not claiming it's above average either mechanically or thematically. But does it have a thematic niche? Yes. The "classic D&D" paladin (which only looked good compared to older classes). Does it execute mechanically? To a non-trivial extent, yes ... is this entire rant just about the name Oath of Devotion and a complaint that it is not, as you suggest, the Oath of Righteousness? Are you writing paragraphs and screeds about a single word in the name? [/QUOTE]
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