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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 8802018" data-attributes="member: 87792">Both of which are perfectly fine as long as you're in a mixed class party. A Shonen Protagonist in a noir film is inherently a fish out of water and doesn't need to twist or subvert their archetype to stand out from everyone else in the noir film. Likewise classic paladins are a strong archetype because it's at odds with most adventurers, while fighters are no differently motivated than most other characters. As I say if you find this tasteless take a COVID test.I would say emphatically that the Oath of Glory, Oath of Conquest, Oath of Vengeance, Oath of the Crown, and Oathbreaker paladins did not have purity in remotely the same way. They have a form of purity and are all determinators - but the Crown deliberately gets grubby and offers the obvious question about swearing to a monarch unworthy of the devotion, the Glory is self-interested, and the other three there are dark.This more or less leaves Ancients, Watchers, and Redemption as the other three that do go for purity and goodness. And frankly none of them cover classic paladins. Ancients is too plant focussed. Redemption is where I would end up if I were trying to create a Lawful Good Paragon Warrior - but it's not where Gygax did and so not the rest of pre-4e D&D did. And frankly I'm not sure what Watchers is going for other than Oath of Devotion But  More Niche And Less Good.We're in agreement about Redemption. But that doesn't somehow make Devotion (other than the name) worse than either Ancients or Watchers. Being able to play the archetype straight is a good thing. And, thanks to D&D history, the classic D&D Paladin is not the Redemption Paladin. And the Ancients Paladin is a wannabe warden encouraged to wear plate armour and otherwise only distinguishable from a Devotion Paladin by having a plant theme while giving up the effects that reinforce both the good and the lawful nature of the paladin.Again the mechanics are better than most of the paladins, especially those in the lawful good area of paladinry. Indeed I'd go so far as to say that mechanically the only place where Redemption is more thematic (although it is a big one) is the Aura of the Guardian's abilities to take hits in place of your ally. I'd put Ancients in more need of going over than Devotion - and Vengeance should have more "ragged" options the way the Avenger did rather than drive you to heavy armour.</blockquote>

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