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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Noxrim" data-source="post: 8225152" data-attributes="member: 7030082">Hello everyone.I have been playing around with the "Baseline" proposed by Treantmonk in <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zg0bAl1WPGQ" target="_blank">his video</a>. I graphed it then used to to compare to different builds that I was coming up with. I then wanted to use the same program to test how the Monk compares to different builds, given how it was claimed that Monks are the worst class in the game. I just wanted to see it for myself.There have been posts here before that discusses this [<a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/monks-suck.673535/" target="_blank">1</a>, <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/my-response-to-the-monk-sucks-thread.674159/" target="_blank">2</a>, <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/monk-vs-warlock-checking-the-baseline.673736/" target="_blank">3</a>], but I wanted to share my findings using graphical representation, and compared to other classes.Without further ado, here are my assumptions:The Armor Class that I used for the monsters throughout the levels are:AC 14 at level 1.AC 15 at level 4.AC 16 at level 5.AC 17 at level 8.AC 18 at level 9.AC 19 at level 13.AC 20 at level 17.Basically, I wanted the base line to have 60% chance of hitting at all levels, and this kind seems like a good average AC at all levels. I am using the same AC for all classes, so this shouldn't give anyone advantage over the others, but let me know if I made a mistake here.I am also not using any magic items, as those vary per game.As for our case, I am starting with a party of Fighter, Warlock, Rogue, and Monk, as follows:Here are my assumptions for the Warlock (baseline):<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starts at 16 Charisma.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Takes Agonizing Blast (Invocation) at level 2.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ASI to increase Charisma at levels 4 and 8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Maintaining Hex</li> </ul>Assumptions for Rogue:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starts at 16 Dexterity.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Always has access to Sneak Attack.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Has two chances of applying it through Two-Weapons Fighting (could also use Hide for advantage).</li> </ul>Assumptions for Fighter:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starts at 16 Strength.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uses longsword (Sword and Shield).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uses Dueling Fighting Style.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ASI to increase Strength at levels 4 and 6.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">No damaging abilities from subclass (imagine a Cavalier tank that tries to help allies with high AC and health).</li> </ul>Assumptions for Monk:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starts at 16 Dexterity.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uses Dedicated Weapon (Optional Feature) to two-hand a longsword for attacks.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Not using Flurry of Blows</li> </ul>Many argue that the most played levels are 1-10, so here are my findings for that range:<img src="https://i.imgur.com/t5DaQj2.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="width: 616px" />As we can see here, the Rogue is doing very well above baseline due to the gradual increase in Sneak Attack every 2 levels. The Fighter, focusing on being a defensive tank and not worrying about DPR, is doing less than the baseline as expected.And the Monk, without using any Ki, is above the baseline as all levels. Keep in mind that the Warlock is using Hex throughout the day and the Monk is still keeping up. Not using any Ki also means that they have access to all the Ki defensive options, offensive bursts, stunning, and utilities and subclass abilities whenever needed.But then, what happens when we go to higher levels:<img src="https://i.imgur.com/O1TyIyu.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="width: 593px" />While the trend continues for other classes, the Monk just kinda plateaus here. It is not even keeping up with the tank fighter in the group. I can't imagine that would feel good to be the Monk at this point.But... At these levels, if we assume a short rest every 2 encounters, and each encounter lasts around ~5 rounds, it is not too much of a stretch to assume that the Monk can now spend Ki for Flurry of Blows on all attacks. So what happens then:<img src="https://i.imgur.com/rKUHXO9.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="width: 616px" />The Monk still can't keep up with the baseline at this point, but at least manages to not be weaker than the fighter.. Until higher levels at least. This Monk is also spending a significant amount of Ki to deal damage that there isn't much left for other uses of Ki. Keep in mind that the Rogue is still not using any resources and can comfortably do more damage than that of the Warlock. The fighter is focusing on giving disadvantage, reducing damage, keeping high AC and health while still doing more damage at higher levels.I have been avoiding using feats since many people argue that feats are optional rules. And while that is true, if we entertain the idea that most games take place between 1-10, and so we must focus on these levels, we should also be using feats, since the majority of tables also use these rules right?So in this scenario we have a new contender, the crossbow expert fighter:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Starts at 16 Dexterity, and Crossbow Expert (Vuman or Custom Lineage).</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Uses Archery Fighting Style.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">ASI to increase Dexterity at levels 4 and 8.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Sharpshooter at level 6.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">EDIT: I forgot to mention that this Fighter is using Champion's Improved Critical and Superior Critical for calculations.</li> </ul>Here is what we have:<img src="https://i.imgur.com/G5pnsIU.png" alt="" class="fr-fic fr-dii fr-draggable " data-size="" style="width: 577px" />Once we start adding more optimized builds and using feats, the Monk really falls behind, even when using Flurry of Blows at higher levels. This is okey if you are comparing a build optimized for damage vs a build that is optimized for something else, but the Monk here doesn't even have the option to optimize to be able to compete.My conclusion:The Monk does okey at the important levels (1-10) and even does better than the "baseline" of Hex+AB Warlock, but it really struggles at higher levels. It also really falls behind once we start adding feats and more "optimized" builds.The problem is that Monks cannot be more optimized. They lack good feats like Sharpshooter and Great Weapon Master. Tashas does give them the half feats so it is getting better, but I believe that they need more support in terms of access to good feats to compete with other martials.They also definitely need help at higher levels from the base class shell itself. Spending all resources on damage, they still can't do good damage compared with other classes without using feats.So overall, my personal opinion:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Buff base class Monk at levels 11+.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Give Monks feats to compete and have options and be able to optimize (in different ways).</li> </ul>What are your thoughts?</blockquote>

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