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<blockquote data-quote="Mistwell" data-source="post: 8226532" data-attributes="member: 2525">An enchanter can &quot;stun&quot; an infinite number of times, at level 2. This is truly a silly argument. Of course a wizard can lock down people better than a monk. Do we really even need to go over the very many many many spells a wizard can use to lock targets down for much longer than the single run of a monk stun, and without the need to refresh with a short rest which might not be available when you need it? Come on man a level 10 Wizard has 16 spell slots all of which can lock down for: 1) multiple rounds with one casting to the monks single round per stun, 2) most of which can lock down many targets with a single use to the monks single target single round stun, 3) all of which can target a save other than the most commonly resisted Con save which the monk must target, and 4) monks need to HIT THEIR TARGET USING THEIR DEX SCORE FIRST before they can even apply the wisdom-based stun DC to the Con save of their foe while the wizard doesn't need to overcome that hurdle to apply the save. And all of this comes on line for the wizard before the monk even gets to stun at level 5, AND it doesn't suffer from the multi-attribute-dependency that the monk suffers from because the monk stun depends on their wisdom but hitting with the attack which can trigger the stun requires Dex. There is no comparison. Anyone who has ever played a wizard focused on locking foes down and a monk focused on locking foes down knows the wizard can do it a lot better and easier than the monk. That in itself doesn't make the monk suck because they do more than stun, but it does put the lie to the claim that monks are great lockdown classes. They're not.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mistwell, post: 8226532, member: 2525"] An enchanter can "stun" an infinite number of times, at level 2. This is truly a silly argument. Of course a wizard can lock down people better than a monk. Do we really even need to go over the very many many many spells a wizard can use to lock targets down for much longer than the single run of a monk stun, and without the need to refresh with a short rest which might not be available when you need it? Come on man a level 10 Wizard has 16 spell slots all of which can lock down for: 1) multiple rounds with one casting to the monks single round per stun, 2) most of which can lock down many targets with a single use to the monks single target single round stun, 3) all of which can target a save other than the most commonly resisted Con save which the monk must target, and 4) monks need to HIT THEIR TARGET USING THEIR DEX SCORE FIRST before they can even apply the wisdom-based stun DC to the Con save of their foe while the wizard doesn't need to overcome that hurdle to apply the save. And all of this comes on line for the wizard before the monk even gets to stun at level 5, AND it doesn't suffer from the multi-attribute-dependency that the monk suffers from because the monk stun depends on their wisdom but hitting with the attack which can trigger the stun requires Dex. There is no comparison. Anyone who has ever played a wizard focused on locking foes down and a monk focused on locking foes down knows the wizard can do it a lot better and easier than the monk. That in itself doesn't make the monk suck because they do more than stun, but it does put the lie to the claim that monks are great lockdown classes. They're not. [/QUOTE]

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