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Comparing Monk DPR
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<blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8244619" data-attributes="member: 6801228"><p>But it is one of three attunement slots, and it is only viable for 4 classes. Again, compare it to the actual same value by itself, which is studded leather armor, which has 9 classes which can use it, no strength requirement and no stealth disadvantage. </p><p></p><p>This is why the Bracers are so limited, because only the classes that no other choice really want them, and the Barbarian, only if they insist on using a two-handed weapon and have high scores.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Attunement is an incredibly limited resource. You get three. And yes, it is +8 over someone with zero dex. A necromancer might have a very low dex. A Celestial Soul Sorcerer might have very low Dex. These characters want the Bracers too. </p><p></p><p>And, to break down your numbers again, if full plate is only +1 better, then you are saying the Monk should have a 17 AC. Now, let's just say that the fighter gets full plate around level 6. Now, the monk can use one of their highly limited attunement slots, with a Rare magical item to jump up higher with a 19 AC. With both hands free. </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter... could have taken the defensive style to get 19 AC. With Both hands free.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter could have gotten an uncommon attunement item (the cloak of protection) that gives +1 to all their saves and gives them 19 AC. With both hands free.</li> </ul><p></p><p>But, why does both hands free matter? Sure, a shield takes an action to put on, but drawing a weapon is a free-item interaction. So, you could have one hand free to do things like open doors, then draw your weapon as part of your attack. Just about the only thing this prevents is you can't grapple... unless you sheath your sword (which is free) to grapple. So, let us assume the fighter is willing to risk those rare times when having only one-hand is going to be a tricky situation during combat, when AC matters. </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter could wear a shield. This brings them to 20 AC.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The fighter could get a rare magic item that doesn't require attunement, a +2 shield, that brings their AC to 22</li> </ul><p></p><p>Oh, and lest we forget... most of this stacks. So, you could have a 23 AC fairly easily, with no attunement. 4 points higher than the monk using their attunement.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There are 13 classes in the game.</p><p></p><p>Natively able to use shields? Artificers, Barbarians, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger (7)</p><p></p><p>Has a subclass that gives a melee version of the class who can use shields? Bard, Warlock (2)</p><p></p><p>Has no access to shields outside of multi-classing or Feats? Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard (4) </p><p></p><p></p><p>It is actually harder to get martial weapon proficiency or Heavy Armor Proficiency. Just about 75% of all classes can use Shields though. And, on that list with no access outside of feats or the subclass list? Only the Monk, Sorcerer and Wizard need two feats, because the Bard Warlock and Rogue all have light armor proficiency. These three classes also never will attune to Bracers of Defense, because it offers them nothing that they can't get by wearing Studded Leather armor. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Actually, they are fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, ect.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nope, Clerics and Paladins can use their shield as a Holy Symbol, meaning they do not need a free hand for casting per the rules.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Handcrossbow can be used with a shield, but I will concede that martial ranged characters and TWF specialist <strong>have chosen not to use a shield</strong>. Not that they couldn't, they just have made a choice to no use one while using their preferred method of fighting.</p><p></p><p>Funny thing though? Two Weapon Fighting Feat gives +1 AC, so if they are a fighter wearing full plate? AC 19, just like the Monk with the Bracers.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You would be very wrong.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Rogues and Warlocks would never use Bracers of Defense, because they get the exact same benefit from wearing Studded Leather armor. Again, to repeat. <strong><u>To use Bracers of Defense you cannot wear any armor</u></strong>. This is a major drawback of the item. There are 9 classes to whom this item is 100% worthless. That is a super majority of the classes in the game. Only 4 can get any use out of it, one (the barbarian) has to have high stats to even consider it, and the other 3 are where we are talking, wizards, sorcerers, and Monks</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So? Bladesinger wizards may be common at your table, but again, if this item is a problem for them, just don't give it to them. But designing this item to be nearly worthless for everyone, just because one subclass can go nuts with it, is a problem. </p><p></p><p>The issue isn't the item, it is the stacking on top of everything else you are having the bladesinger do.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If they could get shields without needing two feats, they would rock shields at every opportunity. But, you said a key phrase here. "with a spare attunement spot".</p><p></p><p>That is the trick here, is a shield worth attunement? Sure, if you have nothing better to attune to, but how many items are better to attune to? Would you give up a ring of spell storing for a shield? A Wand of Fireballs? There are a lot of things that are far better for them, that also require attunement. And why does this item require attunement when it is already so limited?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But a smart player sheaths their sword instead of donning and doffing the shield. Most player's don't need both hands all the time. Most players can get proficiency rather trivially with a shield. </p><p></p><p>And the barrier of being unable to wear armor immediately drops the Bracers down to being usable by 4 classes in the entire game. If shields can be used by 9 classes, and BoD can be used by 4 (one with a asterisk) then... why also make it need attunement? The only reason I don't compare it to studded leather armor is because it stacks with non-armor AC calculations, but if you want to give it to a rogue... it literally has all the benefits of studded leather armor with additional drawbacks and a massive price tag. </p><p></p><p>I think you are just not seeing how heavily limited this item already is. The only characters whom this item would be a no brainer for without attunement are Monks, Wizards and Sorcerers. And other than the bladesinger, none of them are going to be getting the ridiculous levels of AC that the traditional AC builds can do with magical armor and shields. </p><p></p><p>The maximum I could see a Monk hitting with this, is if you gave them a Defender, Bracers, two items of Protection, and the Ioun Stone. Max their stats and you could see an AC 28</p><p></p><p>The max of a Fighter with +3 plate, +3 shield, Defender, two items of protection and the ioun stone is 32. </p><p></p><p>I might be wrong about the Defender not requiring attunement, but in that case, drop the Ioun stone and both ACs by 1. That is the "worst case" scenarios for both of them stacking as much AC with attunement slots as they can if Bracers are free. Again, a difference of 4 points, not including the defensive fighting style. </p><p></p><p>There is just nothing the Monk can do with free bracers that breaks anything not already broken. Opening them up doesn't do anything except level the field a tiny bit. And make Bladesingers potentially more broken than they already were.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Chaosmancer, post: 8244619, member: 6801228"] But it is one of three attunement slots, and it is only viable for 4 classes. Again, compare it to the actual same value by itself, which is studded leather armor, which has 9 classes which can use it, no strength requirement and no stealth disadvantage. This is why the Bracers are so limited, because only the classes that no other choice really want them, and the Barbarian, only if they insist on using a two-handed weapon and have high scores. Attunement is an incredibly limited resource. You get three. And yes, it is +8 over someone with zero dex. A necromancer might have a very low dex. A Celestial Soul Sorcerer might have very low Dex. These characters want the Bracers too. And, to break down your numbers again, if full plate is only +1 better, then you are saying the Monk should have a 17 AC. Now, let's just say that the fighter gets full plate around level 6. Now, the monk can use one of their highly limited attunement slots, with a Rare magical item to jump up higher with a 19 AC. With both hands free. [LIST] [*]The fighter... could have taken the defensive style to get 19 AC. With Both hands free. [*]The fighter could have gotten an uncommon attunement item (the cloak of protection) that gives +1 to all their saves and gives them 19 AC. With both hands free. [/LIST] But, why does both hands free matter? Sure, a shield takes an action to put on, but drawing a weapon is a free-item interaction. So, you could have one hand free to do things like open doors, then draw your weapon as part of your attack. Just about the only thing this prevents is you can't grapple... unless you sheath your sword (which is free) to grapple. So, let us assume the fighter is willing to risk those rare times when having only one-hand is going to be a tricky situation during combat, when AC matters. [LIST] [*]The fighter could wear a shield. This brings them to 20 AC. [*]The fighter could get a rare magic item that doesn't require attunement, a +2 shield, that brings their AC to 22 [/LIST] Oh, and lest we forget... most of this stacks. So, you could have a 23 AC fairly easily, with no attunement. 4 points higher than the monk using their attunement. There are 13 classes in the game. Natively able to use shields? Artificers, Barbarians, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Paladin, Ranger (7) Has a subclass that gives a melee version of the class who can use shields? Bard, Warlock (2) Has no access to shields outside of multi-classing or Feats? Monk, Rogue, Sorcerer, Wizard (4) It is actually harder to get martial weapon proficiency or Heavy Armor Proficiency. Just about 75% of all classes can use Shields though. And, on that list with no access outside of feats or the subclass list? Only the Monk, Sorcerer and Wizard need two feats, because the Bard Warlock and Rogue all have light armor proficiency. These three classes also never will attune to Bracers of Defense, because it offers them nothing that they can't get by wearing Studded Leather armor. Actually, they are fighters, rangers, paladins, barbarians, ect. Nope, Clerics and Paladins can use their shield as a Holy Symbol, meaning they do not need a free hand for casting per the rules. Handcrossbow can be used with a shield, but I will concede that martial ranged characters and TWF specialist [B]have chosen not to use a shield[/B]. Not that they couldn't, they just have made a choice to no use one while using their preferred method of fighting. Funny thing though? Two Weapon Fighting Feat gives +1 AC, so if they are a fighter wearing full plate? AC 19, just like the Monk with the Bracers. You would be very wrong. Rogues and Warlocks would never use Bracers of Defense, because they get the exact same benefit from wearing Studded Leather armor. Again, to repeat. [B][U]To use Bracers of Defense you cannot wear any armor[/U][/B]. This is a major drawback of the item. There are 9 classes to whom this item is 100% worthless. That is a super majority of the classes in the game. Only 4 can get any use out of it, one (the barbarian) has to have high stats to even consider it, and the other 3 are where we are talking, wizards, sorcerers, and Monks So? Bladesinger wizards may be common at your table, but again, if this item is a problem for them, just don't give it to them. But designing this item to be nearly worthless for everyone, just because one subclass can go nuts with it, is a problem. The issue isn't the item, it is the stacking on top of everything else you are having the bladesinger do. If they could get shields without needing two feats, they would rock shields at every opportunity. But, you said a key phrase here. "with a spare attunement spot". That is the trick here, is a shield worth attunement? Sure, if you have nothing better to attune to, but how many items are better to attune to? Would you give up a ring of spell storing for a shield? A Wand of Fireballs? There are a lot of things that are far better for them, that also require attunement. And why does this item require attunement when it is already so limited? But a smart player sheaths their sword instead of donning and doffing the shield. Most player's don't need both hands all the time. Most players can get proficiency rather trivially with a shield. And the barrier of being unable to wear armor immediately drops the Bracers down to being usable by 4 classes in the entire game. If shields can be used by 9 classes, and BoD can be used by 4 (one with a asterisk) then... why also make it need attunement? The only reason I don't compare it to studded leather armor is because it stacks with non-armor AC calculations, but if you want to give it to a rogue... it literally has all the benefits of studded leather armor with additional drawbacks and a massive price tag. I think you are just not seeing how heavily limited this item already is. The only characters whom this item would be a no brainer for without attunement are Monks, Wizards and Sorcerers. And other than the bladesinger, none of them are going to be getting the ridiculous levels of AC that the traditional AC builds can do with magical armor and shields. The maximum I could see a Monk hitting with this, is if you gave them a Defender, Bracers, two items of Protection, and the Ioun Stone. Max their stats and you could see an AC 28 The max of a Fighter with +3 plate, +3 shield, Defender, two items of protection and the ioun stone is 32. I might be wrong about the Defender not requiring attunement, but in that case, drop the Ioun stone and both ACs by 1. That is the "worst case" scenarios for both of them stacking as much AC with attunement slots as they can if Bracers are free. Again, a difference of 4 points, not including the defensive fighting style. There is just nothing the Monk can do with free bracers that breaks anything not already broken. Opening them up doesn't do anything except level the field a tiny bit. And make Bladesingers potentially more broken than they already were. [/QUOTE]
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