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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8247020" data-attributes="member: 6801228">Well, you keep responding with "a character of that level can't have that many items" as though a minor guideline buried in Xanathar's is dictating limits. Amusingly, the games with the fewest magical items tend to be the ones where we are homebrewing. We get a lot more when playing pre-written adventures.I'm not sure why you think the 5-weeks (theoretical) of looking for the studded leather matters when comparing the attunement time. That is a complete non-sequiter. After you have the item, it takes 1 minute to put on, and since most people don't strip out of their armor during adventures, it is usually a non-issue. Also, I note how this went from "it is shorter to take a six-second action to put on a shield than an hour to attune to an item" to "But an hour is shorter than the five weeks it takes you to find the armor". That doesn't disprove my shield argument in the slightest.RAW suggests two short rests, but that is far from guaranteed. In fact, this is a commonly discussed problem on these threads. But, even if you have the recommended two short rests, that still doesn't allow you to swap items mid-combat. Yes, it takes an action, but I could pull out a shield in the middle of combat if I needed to. I can't take an hour rest in the middle of combat if I needed to.I believe the money issue has been addressed repeatedly at this point. Looking at the individual treasure table you can expect 1 to 5 gold on CR less than 4 creatures. That is not including their equipment, which can be sold. A single shortsword can be sold for 5 gp. 5 gold is going to be able to buy you between 10 and 50 meals, and that is if the inn price doesn't include a meal, which generally our DM has the inn price cover food and drink. This isn't a large expense that we are talking about here.We've had a few wizards. Not many, and the DM rarely gives out spellbooks either wayMost spells don't require them, so that would make sense, wouldn't it? I'm going to guess that you don't drive a Ferrari while wearing a Rollex. Most people don't, so that is a good guess.No, I was saying I don't see why kicking in an unlocked door would require a roll. It didn't require a roll to turn the door handle, why would it require a roll to make a more dramatic entrance?Yeah, we don't bother with that. The wizard or sorcerer fires a spell... then uses their movement to move around the corner so the BBEG can't target them. We don't need to bother with opening and closing it all the time, it is just extra noise for no real purpose.Right, but you aren't seeing the scenario.The Fighter looks over the group, they are ready, he opens the door. Villains are in the room. We roll initiative. The Monk runs in (because they have higher initiative) then the fighter takes their turn. The Fighter didn't open the door this turn. They couldn't have, it is impossible, because the monk took their entire turn. So, either you are penalizing the fighter for taking an action before their turn, or it is a new turn and the fighter has all of their actions. So they draw their sword and charge in. In this scenario, there is no problem with having your sword sheathed, the only thing is does is prevent you from attacking before your turn, which you can't do anyways.What does being a magic item mean? Does it not count just because it is an item? That seems kind of silly. I mis-remembered on War Caster, is just lets you use Somatic Components, which is still generally enough, but that was my mistake. And, note that Staffs are good weapons for the druid, very very little reason to use anything else. So, two subclasses, one class, and then two other classes if they happen to get shields, maybe three, I can't remember if Artificers get arcane focuses. So, that is more than a few.Except, there is a second consideration. If they don't want a melee weapon, they can still use their focus. Any warlock who puts on a shield can then use their rod in the other hand. So, you need a class that can use a shield, wants to use a shield, wants to use a weapon, but either also wants to cast spells that have material components or doesn't take warcaster. That is a pretty narrow field. And, again, staves are pretty good weapon choices, and if they want to be casters... they likely would just be using cantrips anyways.Yeah, you just listed most martial characters who have access to heavy armor and shields. So.. most of them would be fine with needing a 15 strength. The only one that might get a little MAD is the Cleric, but again, that is a good trade for the cleric anyways.Which again, if that is your build, say if you are a Dexterity based ranger, that isn't too hard to get. if you are planning on getting Medium Armor Mastery... then you are planning on having or getting a +3 to take advantage of that feat. Why on earth would you take a feat you can't utilize?Huh? Point buy maxes at 15. Optimization would be Wood Elf I guess, that gets you 17 and 16 (which isn't optimized in my opinion, but whatever) A single ASI gets you 18 and 17... which isn't 20/20. A half feat gets you 18/18... which is 18 AC. The EXACT same as Platemail. (Or they could get 20/16 which is better but also still just an 18 AC)A mid-level fighter with plate and shield has 20 AC, so I don't know what you could possibly mean by a heavy armor character never catching up without magic. The Monk hasn't even caught up to the HEavy Armor guy yet. They need another 2 feats. It is 3.5 ASIs minimum. Which is 16th level. And sure, no penalty to stealth. That is a big factor in wearing heavy armor, but since the baseline Monk can NEVER exceed that AC without magic, and the Fighter could easily have 21 without magic, that is an opportunity cost.<table style='width: 100%'><tr><th>Rarity</th><th>Character Level</th><th>Value</th></tr><tr><td>Common</td><td>1st or higher</td><td>50–100 gp</td></tr><tr><td>Uncommon</td><td>1st or higher</td><td>101–500 gp</td></tr><tr><td>Rare</td><td>5th or higher</td><td>501–5,000 gp</td></tr><tr><td>Very rare</td><td>11th or higher</td><td>5,001–50,000 gp</td></tr><tr><td>Legendary</td><td>17th or higher</td><td>50,001+ gp</td></tr></table>Probably not, but maybe. Also, again, encumberance is a trivially easy problem to solve. Unless your DM specifically goes out of their way to overencumber you, then it really doesn't come up.But the opportunity cost of these Rare items with attunement worth as much as 5,000 gold being only better than mundane, dirt cheap armor because of weight, if you are worried about encumberance... doesn't that just say it all?OR, and this is the truth, the handidness just doesn't come up because it is a solved problem. You have still not shown anything except opening doors that seems like it would be any issue, and we don't tend to open new doors until the fight is over.Dude... you realize that the DM put them in the dungeon for you to find right? That is what "give out" means. I'm not saying a little gnome in red robes handed them to us out of his magic sack, but if the DM doesn't place the items for us to find... there is nothing to find.Attunement slots5,000 gold price tagI can do it from level 1 to 3, instead of waiting til level 5 or higherI mean, you are the one so worried about being attacked while you sleep that you will use an attunement slot on an item that is utterly worthless to you in any other possible situation, so why not start protecting yourself from the beginning instead of hoping for a magical set of non-armor?Think about that for a second. If attunement becomes an issue, you can replace a rare magic item with mundane, low level armor. Doesn't that make the item seem... kind of worthless?Which seems rather silly, when the BoD are worth a heck of a lot more, and are more useful as a bargaining chip or emergency wealth stash than being used for their intended use.They didn't attack me, and I can just grab their weapon. Or my backup weapon that I dropped my first weapon to get out. Heck yes that is a great situation. If I can get the enemy to waste a turn I'm doing great.I said "If for some reason", so give me the reason? You are the one who keeps insisting people need free hands all the time in combat, so what do I need that free hand for? Personally, we almost never drop our weapons, because there is no reason to have a free hand.shrugI think charisma is pretty worthless for a cleric. And Dex is easily dropped in favor of using that heavy armor and getting strength. Con and Wisdom are important though. And, I've seen those threads, but they often do downplay just how hard to hit a sword and board fighter can be. A strength based fighter with a rapier and Defensive Duelist can pretty trivially hit 24 AC on an attack per turn. No magic, just a reaction. Makes for a solid tank.</blockquote>

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