Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="auburn2" data-source="post: 8252384" data-attributes="member: 6855259">Ok as soon as you give me an example where it being an attunement items as it is written breaks the game.  You are the one suggesting that we change the rules, you should be the one to point out how it breaks the game as written.And while we are doing this, I will point out that I gave you an example that breaks the game, you just decided it was too limited in scope and I should instead change the rules for the subclass.I will wait though, please tell me how it being attunement breaks the game!You are on record saying your players have plenty of money, can buy magic and will always buy plate or half plate at first opportunity for a small increase over other, cheaper armor.  Yet for some reason you won't buy scrolls that give an AC bonus that does the same?  Heck buy a staff of defense and you can cast it up to 10 times a day and you get an average of 4 to 5 charges back every single day.Yes they cost a spell slot, but it is a 1st level slot, it lasts 8 hours and it gives a minimum +1 boost over studded. Casting Haste on the Barbarian or fly on the fighter costs spell slots too.  Casting bless costs a spell slot.  Those things last 10 minutes or less and require concentration (and two of them are a 3rd level slot).  Mage armor works all day long unless dispelled.There is an inconsistency with your position that it is essential and uber important for a character to get the best AC possible through armor, regardless of cost and liabilities .... but there is no priority to get a better boost through another method, even when it comes with no or fewer liabilities.A wizard gets a crap ton of slots and gets half his level in slots back with a short rest.  At 9th level a wizard can get 5 slots back through arcane recovery which is almost as many spells as a Warlock can cast all day long.  We are talking about 1st level slots here too, once he hits mid level they are not that useful in combat unless he is in melee and using shield regularly and if he gets caught in combat and runs out he can even upcast that if necessary.Yes, at 1st level that is a huge cost but at 4th not so much and 6th and above it is almost irrelevant (i.e. when characters  are starting to be close to affording good armor).Disadvantage to stealth is pretty huge, and I will point out that there are no disadvantages at all to Mage Armor.There is a higher cost than that because a fighter is usually going to be optimized for specific weapons and/or fighting style.  You can build and play a versatile fighter but that guy is not great at anything.  When wielding a shield and sword he won't do as much damage as a dueling and won't have as high an AC as a defense guy, when wielding a greatsword he won't do as much damage as a GWF (especially one that takes feats as well).  Such a character is giving up more than a 6th level wizard who casts mage armor twice at the start of the day.To be honest though a gal that is good at a lot but not great at anything is my favorite kind of fighter to play - A human with a 16 strength, GWM feat, archery fighting style, sharpshooter, 14 dexterity in a chain shirt (or breastplate at high levels).  I also like playing the arcane archer subclass with this, although to be honest it is strictly inferior to a battlemaster.  That character is really versitile, but others regularly beat him out in both damage and in tanking and in terms of power gaming it is not a good choice..  You will run into the same in a guy that regularly swaps between shields and 2-handed or 1-handed weapon weapons.Most people I play with use stealth regardless of class, and regardless of whether they are good at it or not.  If the Barbarian used stealth before he gets to the room he can still charge in roaring with surprise.   No Barbarians I know skulk through a dungeon roaring the whole time.Not negatives, tradeoffs.  There are no negatives to being in mage armor as compared to studded leather.  It is all positives.Half your spell slots?  At first level and sendond level it is half his spell slots to use it both on himself and the Rogue.  At third level and beyond a wizard can cast this twice at the start of  the day and be fully recharged with one short rest.I am giving up an attack to position the enemy where I want.It is a great trade when you are a Rogue.  An AOO is not that valuable, the first attack in a fight isn't either as you often don't have positioning or advantage for Sneak Attack.  Grapple more or less garuntees SA going forward because you put the enemy where you want him.If he breaks the grapple then the action economy is back where it started.Moreover you don't know that I lost any attacks.  If he is going to flee I actually get more attacks now because he has to break the grapple first, meaning he can't take disengage nor dash like he could have if I just attacked in round 1.  If I attack on my first turn he takes dash and get one AOO, or he takes disengage and I get none (at least on that turn) and I have to follow him to set one up on the next turn.  If he has to break the grapple first I get an AOO that turn and he can't dash or disengage.They don't need to see through it.  Normally one character attacking another character in darkness is no advantage or disadvantage either way, but it does eliminate AOOs.  Yes if you have devil sight niether of those is true, but not manny fighters have devil's sight.  As a matter of fact not many players other than Warlock's have it.He gets one more attack than I do, he does not get an "extra attack" on me.  I took a different action that was not a weapon attack.  Would you say he gets an "extra attack" if the wizard casts acantrip instead of attacking?Moreover if wants to ever go where he wants he needsOnce you grapple that grappled condition is in effect until it is broken.  If I successfully grapple on the first turn of combat, I can move him wherever I want and attack him every turn after that until the end of time unless he incapacitates me or he takes an action to break the grapple and suceeds.  I can move him and attack every single turn.  I can move  him next to an enemy to enable SA, attack him and then drag him away.Grappling is also a way for a melee rogue to get advantage every single turn by combining it with steady aim.  Normally in melee the enemy can move, potentially forcing the Rogue to move to get positioning for SA and denying steady aim.  If he is grappled he can't move, so not only can I SA every turn, I can do it with advantage every turn ....until he breaks  the grapple.No, grapple them in the first round or when the Barbarian gets low or whenever.  As far as the second, if the initiative order is not right then you can't do it exactly like I said.  If that is the case the Barbarian needs to use a ready action, which costs him if he has multi attack, but he still is keeping away from the bad guy and can still use reckless with no worry.  How it would work is grapple-move-barb Ready attack-bad guy attacks-move bad guy-trigger barb attack-rogue sneak attack-move bad guy away .....No of course not.  Realistically my AC is close to if not better than the Barbarians to start with,  I have uncanny dodge and I am a lot harder to hit because enemies are not swinging at me with advantage most of the time and unless I am grappling, probably are not swinging at me at all. It was one example.  Every fight has conditionals, but one thing that is very common is the barbarian takes a crapload of damage in every battle.  He has a crap ton of hps so he can, but it is rare that he escapes unscathed.The description of oil lists the damage, it does not list the lanterns and one of the two packs that comes with oil has no lantern.If the enemy moves while in combat he takes  an AOO unless he uses disengage and wastes an action ... and he can still be drug or pushed back into the oil unless he moves far from it and the position he presumably wanted to be in.Against a 15 AC foe a 5th level fighter with an 18 strength and dueling will average (mean) 14.1 DPR, however this is not a uniform distibution and the median is only 13 damage.  This means 13 damage is right in the middle half the time he will do 13 or less and half the time he will do 13 or more. That is all far less than "reliably" doing 21 points of damage.  Bump that up to 19 AC and the mean damage is 8.9 and median damage is 10.Or they might miss on both.  This assumes the Rogue gets  SA too, which they usually can but it also assumes he does not have advantage, which he often does. Here are the real numbers:Against a 15AC foe the fighter will miss completely with both attacks 12% of the time and 30% of the time against a 19 AC foeThe Rogue is harder to determine because of advantage.  If you assume advantage on 30% of his attacks he misses 24% vs 15AC and 47% vs 19AC.Note 0 damage is the mode for both the rogue and fighter for both 15 and 19  AC.  This means they will do 0 damage in a turn more often than any other number.Against a 15 AC foe a Rogue with 18 Dexterity who gets SA on 90% of his attacks and advantage on 30% of his attacks  does an average (mean) of 13.9 DPR and a median of 17 damage.  This is an easy enemy to hit but the Rogue's mean damage is pulled down by not getting SA on 10% of his attacks.  Against a 19 AC foe the Rogue is doing a mean of 10.2 and a median of 8.So there you have it:vs 15ACF - 14.1 DPR mean, 13 DPR medianR- 13.9 DPR mean, 17 DPR medianvs 19ACF - 8.9 mean, 10 medianR - 10.2 mean, 8 medianSo who does more?  It depends how you count.  Assuming a large sample, against most enemies with a mid-level AC a Rogue will do more damage on the majority of turns.  The fighter will do more total damage on all turns combined.   Against a high AC foe those numbers are reversed.Note, those numbers do include critical hits and assume the fighter is not a  champion.  A champion would add .45 mean damage to the fighters numbers but would not change the median values.</blockquote>

Verification