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Message: <blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7826304" data-attributes="member: 6919838">Well, see, I think where we disagree is on choices.Anyone with strength can use shove and grapple to inflict grappled, prone or reposition a target (most targets). Choose feats and you get even more - like restrained - even free with attscks.Choose the right class or sub-class and either these get better or you get others. You mention skills vs precious feat... well fighter get bonus feats by sixth and if not choosing to use them for optimizing combat could use them for these tools or skills etc. Wanting the barbarian to be a pet class sub-class instead of taking ranger.Etc...My thought is that the system allows the choice to move to expand in these other areas but those choices dont at the same time optimize the combat aspects. As for "boring" champion, it's meant to be simple and direct to play by design, to be straight ahead intentionally because the designers valued having sub-classes where folks just wanting an easy to play option had them. They did do while allowing those wanting more complex play to get that too - by making other choices.</blockquote>