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Compelling and Differentiated Gameplay For Spellcasters and Martial Classes
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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7826720" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>Freakishly, though, D&D MUs, even back in the day, outstripped those sources "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-User," the greatest Dying Earth magicians could memorize only a few spells at a time (though, they could be pretty butch spells - imagine if high level D&D wizards could choose between memorizing either up to 6 1st or 2nd level spells, or up to 4 6th+ level spells.)</p><p>Wha? A <em>comic book</em>?</p><p></p><p>That squares with what he wrote, yeah - also, that he went with the short, spoken spells of Vance vs the more typical ritual magic of myth/legend/RL-practice/etc, to keep the PC caster viable. </p><p></p><p>Of course, the result was LFQW. </p><p></p><p>Even if we want to hang Tier 1 caster-dominance's pointy had on that justification (and even if it held), it would clash with the whole 'Vancian for balance' idea, since, y'know, why limit magic to make it balanced if the caster were supposed to be 'just better?' </p><p>Since balance was part of the idea, and is certainly something games, especially cooperative ones, need to avoid sucking, it wouldn't make sense to go ahead and intentionally make casters "just better" then weight them the same as other classes (you get to pick one class). The difference in exp tables hardly qualified - there were times in the progression that a fighter & MU with the same xp would be the same level, or even the MU /higher/ level than the fighter - though, I do recall an obscure imitator, Ysgarth, that made exp progression weight very differently for different classes, the wizard heaviest of all, so it's not like no one ever explored the idea, D&D just didn't take it very far, and abandoned it entirely in 3e.</p><p></p><p>So, he too, was a 5th level magic user? TBF, an encounter with a single monster.And, he also used one of those 5 spells to breath under water as well, where the stone blocks were pushed over on him, but each of the other spells just killed* something. Modelling killing something in D&D can range from a d4 of damage on up, so it's not terribly indicative, really depends on what you're killing. Though, yeah, those're some flashy spells (that Phandaal, he was a card). </p><p></p><p>But, perhaps most importantly, Vance is where they got the habit of naming spells after their creator. Because, afterall, wizards don't "memorize" their spells anymore, but Tenser, Mordenkainen, et al still have spells named after them.</p><p></p><p> The fighter has been the most popular D&D class in every edition: when it was just a d10 HD, decent matrixes, permission to use more weapons/armor than other classes, and % STR in 1e, to the DPR king it could be in 2e and (shared crown) 5e, to the elegant but Tier 5 design of 3.x, to, even, the <em>gasp</em> balanced, strong defender-role class it was in 4e (false accusations of 'casting spells' and handwringing over complexity notwisthstanding).</p><p></p><p>It just represents the most popular, familiar, and/or relatable archetypes of heroic fantasy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>* in one case, hypnotized?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7826720, member: 996"] Freakishly, though, D&D MUs, even back in the day, outstripped those sources "Gandalf was a 5th level Magic-User," the greatest Dying Earth magicians could memorize only a few spells at a time (though, they could be pretty butch spells - imagine if high level D&D wizards could choose between memorizing either up to 6 1st or 2nd level spells, or up to 4 6th+ level spells.) Wha? A [I]comic book[/I]? That squares with what he wrote, yeah - also, that he went with the short, spoken spells of Vance vs the more typical ritual magic of myth/legend/RL-practice/etc, to keep the PC caster viable. Of course, the result was LFQW. Even if we want to hang Tier 1 caster-dominance's pointy had on that justification (and even if it held), it would clash with the whole 'Vancian for balance' idea, since, y'know, why limit magic to make it balanced if the caster were supposed to be 'just better?' Since balance was part of the idea, and is certainly something games, especially cooperative ones, need to avoid sucking, it wouldn't make sense to go ahead and intentionally make casters "just better" then weight them the same as other classes (you get to pick one class). The difference in exp tables hardly qualified - there were times in the progression that a fighter & MU with the same xp would be the same level, or even the MU /higher/ level than the fighter - though, I do recall an obscure imitator, Ysgarth, that made exp progression weight very differently for different classes, the wizard heaviest of all, so it's not like no one ever explored the idea, D&D just didn't take it very far, and abandoned it entirely in 3e. So, he too, was a 5th level magic user? TBF, an encounter with a single monster.And, he also used one of those 5 spells to breath under water as well, where the stone blocks were pushed over on him, but each of the other spells just killed* something. Modelling killing something in D&D can range from a d4 of damage on up, so it's not terribly indicative, really depends on what you're killing. Though, yeah, those're some flashy spells (that Phandaal, he was a card). But, perhaps most importantly, Vance is where they got the habit of naming spells after their creator. Because, afterall, wizards don't "memorize" their spells anymore, but Tenser, Mordenkainen, et al still have spells named after them. The fighter has been the most popular D&D class in every edition: when it was just a d10 HD, decent matrixes, permission to use more weapons/armor than other classes, and % STR in 1e, to the DPR king it could be in 2e and (shared crown) 5e, to the elegant but Tier 5 design of 3.x, to, even, the [I]gasp[/I] balanced, strong defender-role class it was in 4e (false accusations of 'casting spells' and handwringing over complexity notwisthstanding). It just represents the most popular, familiar, and/or relatable archetypes of heroic fantasy. * in one case, hypnotized? [/QUOTE]
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