Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Complete Disagreement With Mike on Monsters (see post #205)
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 3755810" data-attributes="member: 2067"><p>Take a look at what they're doing to Demons and Devils and the poor Erinyes.</p><p></p><p>Reconceptualizing monsters isn't a problem. That's part of what a new edition is for, after all. A Beholder pretty much needs eye rays, but firing off 10 a round? Even 3? Does it really need that?</p><p></p><p>And if it does get that, if it really does need all those actions, is it really strange to think of a PC who can do more than one thing at a time like that? We're already hearing about Leaders who heal just because they exist. What's the problem with a 15th level character spurting out a Sleep attack of some sort just because they're around, in that context?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sure, but if I get different numbers, or if a creature who was once a monster becomes an ally and suddenly changes stats, that kicks my realism in the groin and takes it's wallet. If I want to play a drow, I want to <strong>play a drow</strong>, not some sort of pseudo-drow who almost looks kind of like the other drow in the world if you squint.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I can tell how well a centaur can tie ropes right now in 3e, and, for some <em>crazy</em> reason, I don't really think the designers really took that into account when assigning the creature CR. The reason? Becaues it doesn't really affect the CHALLENGE of the creature. It's breadth without deapth -- gives it more stuff to do without making it really any more potent in the combat. </p><p></p><p>A centaur that can tie a slipknot really doesn't affect your basic centaur combat in the slightest, but it means that if I use the centaur as a setting element rather than as XP gristle, I have a starting point for saying, for instance, if a centaur hangman makes sense, or if the centaurs might have boy scouts with knot-tying merit badges.</p><p></p><p>Use Rope is kind of an absurd example, and I'm fairly confident we won't even SEE Use Rope in the next edition, but think of the Survival skill. Most of the time, it doesn't matter how a monster gets food, but if the PC's are lost in the forest and befriend an alien creature, it can be useful to know if said creature can feed themselves as well as the PC's.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But that's the thing: "attributing such a bonus" = "Make Stuff Up." Make Stuff Up sucks. There's no solid reason, as far as I can see, why I should have to do that, when the centaur can be easily designed to fill the role of "brute" or "archer" in combat, as well as the role of "protector of untouched wilderness" in the world, and the role of "potential ally for the party druid" for the PC's (for instance). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Centaurs are more than just antagonists. They're spirits of hedonism. They're horrible underworld terrors. They're evocative of a Mediterranean atmosphere, and conjure images of Hercules and Poseidon. They're creatures of the sea, they're trainers of heroes. They're sylvan defenders of the forest. They're monstrous savage brutes from distant lands. </p><p></p><p>And that's just the standard roles that they *should* be designed to fill.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't like just deciding how something is. I like arriving at my conclusions through a logical process of extrapolation (some of that is my improv-heavy DM style speaking, where logic leaps along a path, rather than springing fully formed to my mind unbidden). </p><p></p><p>But if I can't take a centaur and not only say how well it peppers PC's with arrows, but also how well it will serve as a tutor for the party's Barbarian, then the 4e team, for all it's efforts, is not designing the monster for it's use. They're designing it for combat and combat alone -- a shallow design goal that does not speak to how monsters are truly used in at least MY campaign.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 3755810, member: 2067"] Take a look at what they're doing to Demons and Devils and the poor Erinyes. Reconceptualizing monsters isn't a problem. That's part of what a new edition is for, after all. A Beholder pretty much needs eye rays, but firing off 10 a round? Even 3? Does it really need that? And if it does get that, if it really does need all those actions, is it really strange to think of a PC who can do more than one thing at a time like that? We're already hearing about Leaders who heal just because they exist. What's the problem with a 15th level character spurting out a Sleep attack of some sort just because they're around, in that context? Sure, but if I get different numbers, or if a creature who was once a monster becomes an ally and suddenly changes stats, that kicks my realism in the groin and takes it's wallet. If I want to play a drow, I want to [B]play a drow[/B], not some sort of pseudo-drow who almost looks kind of like the other drow in the world if you squint. I can tell how well a centaur can tie ropes right now in 3e, and, for some [I]crazy[/I] reason, I don't really think the designers really took that into account when assigning the creature CR. The reason? Becaues it doesn't really affect the CHALLENGE of the creature. It's breadth without deapth -- gives it more stuff to do without making it really any more potent in the combat. A centaur that can tie a slipknot really doesn't affect your basic centaur combat in the slightest, but it means that if I use the centaur as a setting element rather than as XP gristle, I have a starting point for saying, for instance, if a centaur hangman makes sense, or if the centaurs might have boy scouts with knot-tying merit badges. Use Rope is kind of an absurd example, and I'm fairly confident we won't even SEE Use Rope in the next edition, but think of the Survival skill. Most of the time, it doesn't matter how a monster gets food, but if the PC's are lost in the forest and befriend an alien creature, it can be useful to know if said creature can feed themselves as well as the PC's. But that's the thing: "attributing such a bonus" = "Make Stuff Up." Make Stuff Up sucks. There's no solid reason, as far as I can see, why I should have to do that, when the centaur can be easily designed to fill the role of "brute" or "archer" in combat, as well as the role of "protector of untouched wilderness" in the world, and the role of "potential ally for the party druid" for the PC's (for instance). Centaurs are more than just antagonists. They're spirits of hedonism. They're horrible underworld terrors. They're evocative of a Mediterranean atmosphere, and conjure images of Hercules and Poseidon. They're creatures of the sea, they're trainers of heroes. They're sylvan defenders of the forest. They're monstrous savage brutes from distant lands. And that's just the standard roles that they *should* be designed to fill. I don't like just deciding how something is. I like arriving at my conclusions through a logical process of extrapolation (some of that is my improv-heavy DM style speaking, where logic leaps along a path, rather than springing fully formed to my mind unbidden). But if I can't take a centaur and not only say how well it peppers PC's with arrows, but also how well it will serve as a tutor for the party's Barbarian, then the 4e team, for all it's efforts, is not designing the monster for it's use. They're designing it for combat and combat alone -- a shallow design goal that does not speak to how monsters are truly used in at least MY campaign. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Complete Disagreement With Mike on Monsters (see post #205)
Top