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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 3757918" data-attributes="member: 42582">There are two cases here.If a Mind Flayer or Drow encountered in the field becomes an ally and joins the party, then its numbers will not change - they are already known. But there will be no quick-and-easy way of assigning a PC level to that ally.If a player wants to build a PC Mind Flayer or Drow from the get-go, then there is no guarantee that such a character will be able to built, using the level/skill/feat/talent-tree rules, in such a way as to deliver something numerically equivalent to a Mind Flayer or Drow that one might meet in the field.Does this mean we are having to squint at pseudo-Drow? I don't think so, because (as I understand the direction that 4e is taking) there is no correct answer to the question "What are the true numbers for a Mind Flayer, or a Drow?" The numbers, for monsters/NPCs, will vary depending on the role and challenge that the GM wants the creature to pose. So your PC Drow/Mind Flayer, with its own PC-build derived numbers, is just as much a genuine creature as any of those that one would encounter in the field.This approach to monster stats is clearly a departure from previous editions of D&D. It makes it less like Runequest (to pick an example), and other systems where the build rules are meant to reflect an in-game process of character development, and more like Tunnels and Trolls or The Dying Earth (to pick another couple of examples), where monster stats are assigned for purely metagame purposes, and the in-game reality is then read back off those stats.It's worth noting that 4e will expand the challenge concept to cover challenges other than combat ones, and in such a challenge (eg a survival or trap challenge) the Rope Use skill of a Centaur would be relevant to its CR. But that's really a tangential point.I must confess I don't see the issue. At the moment, if the hungry PCs are wandering lost through a forest, you as a GM have to determine:*Do they meet anyone? *If so, is it a centaur? *If so, is it a centaur Barbarian, Druid or Ranger who might be able to help them survive?In 4e you have to answer the same questions. So there is no more or less making up of stuff. If you don't want to decide, and instead prefer to use random tables that reflect the in-game likelihood of encountering creatures, including centaur Rangers of a given skill level, you will be able to use the same tables in 4e.In 3e you can only tell how good a tutor the Centaur will be once you have decided what HD the Centaur has (and therefore what extra skill points and feats it may have acquired through advancement), what class levels it has (and therefore what extra skill points, feats and class abilities it may have acquired) and what magic items it has. The GM has to make those decisions, and together they determine the outcome to the question posed.In 4e the GM will have to make a different set of decisions: What numerical bonuses do I want this creature to have? Once those bonuses are assigned, the question of tutoring utility will be answered. If you don't want to choose, use the same random determination process you are using at present.I don't see any difference in outcome here between 3e and 4e, nor in the requirement for decisions to be made. Only the process is different - in 3e the one set of decisions (HD, class levels, etc) determines all the numbers by way of a single build process, whereas in 4e there is no comparable "build process" - there's just the assignment of numbers - but there are multiple decisions: is this an "archer" Centaur, a "survival" Centaur, a "brute" Centaur, or is it two or three of these?Sure. But what precludes you extrapolating the Survival skill of a Centaur from your knowledge of Centaurs in your gameworld? Or your knowledge of this particular Centaur.Some of those roles are "functional", in terms of the sort of game mechanical sub-system they relate to: "brute" and "archer" are both combat roles, for example, while "wilderness protector" suggests a role in either survival or social challenges, and "potential ally" and "trainer of heroies" both suggest a social challenge role.Others of those roles are broadly "flavour" roles which can overlap with any given functional role: "spirit of hedonism", "underworld terror", "monstrous brute from a distant land", etc.There's no reason to suppose that the game won't support centaurs filling all those various functional roles, and nor to suppose that it will preclude you from using one or more of the flavour roles.</blockquote>

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