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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Tovec" data-source="post: 5954611" data-attributes="member: 95493">*grumbles* NO! The fighter shouldn't be the equivalent of HERCULES.At epic, possibly but I will disagree with you to my dying day that at any point before the fighter becomes a god (or half-god) with untold cosmic-godly strength that the fighter should be equivalent to HERCULES!With the same kind of specialization, training and skill I can fight like Jet Li or (the real) Chuck Norris. I'm never going to be equal to a greek god! I'm never going to redirect rivers in order to clean stables. It isn't within my power, it isn't going to happen.I don't want it, you can if that suits you but SHOULD doesn't belong anywhere near that sentence.First, it should be impossible to trip a creature that cannot be tripped. The same as you should be ale to walk through an incorporeal creature. It is an element of their physiology. I don't see people complaining that using ice against the giant ice monster is somehow unfair.Second, 3e made them tricky, as in you weren't doing it all the time, not impossible. If it were made easier, or less penalties for failure, then the problem more or less sorts itself out. I have seen other systems try and replicate and fix the "impossibility" of 3e and most have succeeded just by changing how it is done. I do agree that making these effects work against everyone for reasons that boggle the mind is not a good way to go.They suck when they are used ineffectively. When all you are doing is knocking the guy down (prone) or disarming him of his weapon, which he can just collect the next round and hit you with then yes sure. But if you disarm him at a critical point when he is about to do something BAD then it doesn't suck. It doesn't suck when you are able to trip him (or knockback) into a canyon which causes him to die like a disney villain. A lot of maneuvers are situational. What sucks is when they aren't special. When they are just used to move him back 2 squares for no other reason than you can.It should be a special thing used for coolness or necessity, not something used for flash or to get more attacks or damage in.In case you are wondering the best solutions I have seen is probably giving a straight penalty for non-proficiency instead of an attack of opportunity for trying at all. The penalty on the roll being a good enough deterrent to trying foolishly, instead of giving an the attacked a chance to negate it as an immediate action.</blockquote>

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