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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 5954781" data-attributes="member: 996">Whatever the rationale, if you advocate for the caster to be able to do anything because &quot;it's magic&quot; but not allow the fighter to do anything 'unrealistic' even though he's a mythic hero in a fantasy world, then, yes, it comes down to simply demanding the fighter be inferior.Well, Demi-god is a perfectly available Epic Path for Fighters, so, in D&amp;D at least, they can pass that litmus test.More to the point, though, 'fighters' of myth and legend do impossible things even in the absence of divine heritage.&nbsp; Fergus mac Roth punched the tops of mountains.&nbsp; He wasn't the sun of a deity or anything, he was 'just' a legendary 'King' of Ireland (part of Ireland).&nbsp; He hung out with Cu'Chulain, who, in some version of the myth, may have been a demi-god, but that's about as close as it got.&nbsp; The problem as I see it one of suspension of disbelief.&nbsp; The fantasy genre has heroes without 'magical powers' doing incredible and even impossible feats, it also has magic-using characters who are not usually heroes, doing impossible - but typically very limited or strictly plot-moving things.&nbsp; D&amp;D tried to emulate the genre, but also make magic-user playable rather than plot devices.&nbsp; It failed.&nbsp; It made casters overpowered, and by sticking to that failure for decades, created it's own overpowered-casters-ruling-the-fantasy-world genre.If the game is going to move towards it's goal of bringing us all together, it's going to have to do what 4e did, and make real options - in terms of power, versatility, &amp; 'plot power' or 'player agency' - available to all classes.&nbsp; Either that or it needs to abandon that goal and drop non-casters as playable casters.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 5954781, member: 996"] Whatever the rationale, if you advocate for the caster to be able to do anything because "it's magic" but not allow the fighter to do anything 'unrealistic' even though he's a mythic hero in a fantasy world, then, yes, it comes down to simply demanding the fighter be inferior. Well, Demi-god is a perfectly available Epic Path for Fighters, so, in D&D at least, they can pass that litmus test. More to the point, though, 'fighters' of myth and legend do impossible things even in the absence of divine heritage. Fergus mac Roth punched the tops of mountains. He wasn't the sun of a deity or anything, he was 'just' a legendary 'King' of Ireland (part of Ireland). He hung out with Cu'Chulain, who, in some version of the myth, may have been a demi-god, but that's about as close as it got. The problem as I see it one of suspension of disbelief. The fantasy genre has heroes without 'magical powers' doing incredible and even impossible feats, it also has magic-using characters who are not usually heroes, doing impossible - but typically very limited or strictly plot-moving things. D&D tried to emulate the genre, but also make magic-user playable rather than plot devices. It failed. It made casters overpowered, and by sticking to that failure for decades, created it's own overpowered-casters-ruling-the-fantasy-world genre. If the game is going to move towards it's goal of bringing us all together, it's going to have to do what 4e did, and make real options - in terms of power, versatility, & 'plot power' or 'player agency' - available to all classes. Either that or it needs to abandon that goal and drop non-casters as playable casters. [/QUOTE]

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