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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vikingkingq" data-source="post: 5955716" data-attributes="member: 66208">My point is that Jet Li and Chuck Norris simply aren't physically capable of fighting these kind of opponents. A CR 10 Fire Giant weighs 7,000 pounds - that's the equivalent of about 2 cars ramming into the Fighter every time they get hit by a Fire Giant. And yet, a Level 10 Fighter can take that damage and not die. A CR 11 Elder Earth Elemental is a 40 foot tall, 60,000 pound walking boulder - no human being could possibly damage one with a hand weapon. And yet a Level 10 Fighter can damage and kill one with a piece of metal powered by their body. Ergo, Level 10 Fighters aren't Bruce Lee or Chuck Norris. Their basic combat statistics put them far beyond the realm of normal human capabilities.It's not explained how they are this way, but they are.  Sure it does. If the limits on the fighter are the limits on a mortal, how is it that they can get hit by something that weighs 60,000 pounds and not die? Once you hit Level 10, you need to be able to take a hit from something that ways 60,000 pounds without dying - and if that's beyond the boundaries of what mortals are capable of, Fighters have to be beyond those boundaries. If it's not a question of terminology, then what's wrong with saying that knock-down means that the Fighter pile-drives the floating creature or the centipede into the ground (centipedes do have legs, you know) - and I mean INTO the ground, if necessary? It has a lot to do with the versatility of a fighter. The thing about Wizards and similar casters is that they have utility that goes far beyond stacking up DPS in ways that potentially make the Fighter surplus to requirements. Battlefield control gives the Fighter a chance at evening the scales with the casters - and if you relegate it to niche circumstances while magic is cast at all times, then the Fighter's potential for catching up to the casters is equally relegated. They do belong to the Fighter because they are the literary basis for the Fighter in the same way that Merlin and Gandalf are the literary basis for the Wizard. To quote from the AD&D 2nd Edition PHB's description of the Fighter class: "There are many famous fighters from legend: Hercules, Perseus, Hiawatha, Beowulf, Siegfried, Cuchulain, Little John, Tristan and Sinbad...your fighter could be modeled after any of these, or he could be unique."It's not errors or loopholes - it's how the class has been built across all editions of D&D. The fighter is assumed to be superhumanly strong and tough and it's simply inconsistent to say that although the Fighter is strong enough to cut through an Iron Golem, they are inherently incapable of Grappling a giant, because that's unrealistic. Yes, regular joes have been able to kill whales - but not in single hand to hand combat as a Fighter could. They certainly haven't been able to take a direct hit, not just once, but many times, etc.  Now here's where I lose you - you say "you can still give everyone the power to do impossible things. It just has to do with re-examining how the casters should work when compared to the martial characters and then giving an outlet where BOTH can become creatures of legend - with the chopping off mountain tops." And yet you argue that fighters shouldn't be capable of doing these things, because they're Jet Li and Chuck Norris, not Hercules. This isn't consistent.</blockquote>

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