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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5957130" data-attributes="member: 87792">And if you stick in low single digit levels, I don't think anyone is going to agree with you.  But even when you hit fifth level (pre-4e) the wizard gains so much strategic and tactical power that you need to significantly surpass human limits to keep up.  Seventh level and you do need to be Hercules - and at 9th level even Hercules is struggling.If level means anything it is a measure of power.  By saying that the Fighter shouldn't be Hercules, you are saying that there is a level of power the fighter shouldn't reach.  And that level is really low by wizard or CoDzilla standard.Who said the dragon was immune to fire?  And why?I equate1: More complex with more options unless the designer has screwed up.2: More options with a less boring experience.3: More options with more ways round any weaknesses.Possibly.  But very few things should be.  A fire elemental should be no more immune to fire than a flesh elemental should be to getting punched in the face.  The late-4e approach to this one is IMO the right one - if you hit a Volcanic Dragon or Fire Elemental with fire, he takes the damage but his own fire gets hotter.  And he becomes more dangerous to the PCs for a little.  Making things more intense rather than more tedious and annoying.And 3e immunities were ridiculous.  All undead immune to precision damage and critical hits?  Please!  You can't decapitate a zombie.  That is ridiculous.  Skeletons, liches, and mummies still have weak points in their anatomy.  Even an ooze would have weak points while flowing.  Places where it stretched thin.You can't hit the incorporeal?  Fine.  Then it can not hit you.  Half damage unless forced to corporate is a high penalty in its own right.  Good!  This is a vast improvement!  A game where a skeleton has no discernable anatomy or weak points in its bone structure is IMO silly.  A game where you can't decapitate a zombie with a critical hit is ... outside genre.    Unless you are wholely and absolutely certain that there is no physical way something can happen then you should allow it.  Allow fire elementals to be hurt by fire but get hotter.Wash your mouth out!  There was no matrix 2.You have watched what Legolas does in the films?  As someone who's played LoTR in multiple editions, 4e provides much better than AD&D or 3.X.  Film and book.  We've just knocked out most of the power sources and gone with all martial characters (and not much forced movement between us).A Rogue with alternatives of Lazy Warlord, Assassin, and Artificer given the way Batman works on the JLA (and I'd suggest Bard for Nightwing and Oracle).  When you have a superhuman battle line, you need to be superhuman to go toe to toe with it.Is Batman's job to take Solomon Grundy on head to head?  He's gonna get pounded.  Certainly not the Fighter in the JLA.  And the concept of him tanking for Superman is laughable.  Superman is a fighter.  Batman is the squishy along side him who the bad guys would have an easy time taking out if only they could lay a hand on him - but they can't either because they have Superman in their face or Batman isn't where they are looking.Because you're going to be dragon-chow if you're pretending to be Bruce Lee.  You are effectively proposing a level cap for fighters.Now I want to see the Rogue given a lot more love.  I want to see them get to a level of mundane skill where the Master of Disguise talent from <a href="http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html#master-of-disguise-deceit" target="_blank">Spirit of the Century</a> and <a href="http://shop.cubicle7store.com/epages/es113347.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/es113347_shop/Categories/Legends_of_Anglerre" target="_blank">Legends of Anglerre</a> (the Fantasy version) is plausible (or preferably open as a specialty).<a href="http://www.faterpg.com/dl/sotc-srd.html#id444" target="_blank">✪ Master of Disguise [Deceit]</a>Requires Clever Disguise and Mimicry. The character can convincingly pass himself off as nearly anyone with a little time and preparation. To use this ability, the player pays a fate point and temporarily stops playing. His character is presumed to have donned a disguise and gone “off camera”. At any subsequent point during play the player may choose any nameless, filler character (a villain’s minion, a bellboy in the hotel, the cop who just pulled you over) in a scene and reveal that that character is actually the PC in disguise! The character may remain in this state for as long as the player chooses, but if anyone is tipped off that he might be nearby, an investigator may spend a fate point and roll Investigate against the disguised character’s Deceit.  If the investigator wins, his player (which may be the GM) gets to decide which filler character is actually the disguised PC (“Wait a minute – you’re the Emerald Emancipator!”).   But that is how you hang with a seriously powerful group with no powers yourself.  You need to fight both incredibly smart and incredibly dirty.  Either that or, come to think of it, be Iron Man - but at that point you might as well put a wizard in the armour.The problem is that they also need to be able to survive the Dragon's breath weapon.  The rogue does it by not being there in the first place.  But the fighter is front and centre in the battle line.It doesn't.  It just means you can't ever fight anything that can punch mountain tops off.No.  What you are proposing is a level cap.  That fighters can never exceed a certain level of power - and because fighters can't that's where we should stop wizards.What I'm wondering is why you can't play your level capped game and let other people play with a higher level cap.  One where wizards are more powerful and fighters become Hercules. Oh, possibly.  If the wizard is stupid enough to fight fair against the fighter then the wizard might lose, depending on the level.  And note your first condition "unless the wizard goes first".  If the fighter goes first the wizard loses - if the wizard goes first the fighter loses.  And the wizard has so many ways to go first or to negate the fighter going first.So remind me, why is the fighter bullying the wizard?  Because the wizard lets him. It's in the PHB on P54. And defines the martial power source as strength, training, dedication, and willpower.   I understood this even before I read the rulebook.I'm not disputing that the team communicating 4e often was ... not good.Fighters get stances and no daily powers.  Their only encounter power is Power Strike - +1[W] damage after rolling.</blockquote>

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