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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5957136" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Sorry this didn't happen for you. Sorry you were stuck in story-free dungeon crawls (from the sounds of it). It's not universal.I have disadvantages you can take at character creation (blind is one of the examples). Keep in mind, too, that some of my examples are in 3.5, and others are in my RPG. Also keep in mind, that you said &quot;fantasy story&quot; and not &quot;heroic fantasy story&quot; in the quote I replied to. I don't always want &quot;heroic fantasy&quot; when I want a &quot;fantasy story&quot; to emerge from play.I agree about 4e being closer to a more narrative game than past editions, but I really don't think that is has a ton of player control of the narrative unless it's player-given (which isn't inherent to the system). You can have powers be described by the GM, or simply used as gamist constructs for some tactical fun. On the other hand, you can let players reflavor their powers, giving them limited but meaningful control in combat situations (or more, if you let them take control of successes on skill challenges, too, though I hear about this less often). It's definitely compatible with 4e play, but I wouldn't say that the rules emphasize it, and they definitely don't make for inherently interesting stories, much less interesting fantasy stories.True enough, and I respect that. I quite like the wording you've used in this post compared to what I quoted.Yes, I agree. I was taking issue with how you represented &quot;the other side&quot; from what seems to be your preferred style. I've had plenty of interesting fantasy stories emerge from my time with the rules (though I find many more emerge now that I use my RPG). Many others have as well. I didn't like the way that you described one side in a positive light, and the other as a bad at achieving the result it strives for. Saying &quot;this doesn't work for me&quot; is one thing; saying &quot;this doesn't work&quot; is another thing entirely. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5957136, member: 6668292"] Sorry this didn't happen for you. Sorry you were stuck in story-free dungeon crawls (from the sounds of it). It's not universal. I have disadvantages you can take at character creation (blind is one of the examples). Keep in mind, too, that some of my examples are in 3.5, and others are in my RPG. Also keep in mind, that you said "fantasy story" and not "heroic fantasy story" in the quote I replied to. I don't always want "heroic fantasy" when I want a "fantasy story" to emerge from play. I agree about 4e being closer to a more narrative game than past editions, but I really don't think that is has a ton of player control of the narrative unless it's player-given (which isn't inherent to the system). You can have powers be described by the GM, or simply used as gamist constructs for some tactical fun. On the other hand, you can let players reflavor their powers, giving them limited but meaningful control in combat situations (or more, if you let them take control of successes on skill challenges, too, though I hear about this less often). It's definitely compatible with 4e play, but I wouldn't say that the rules emphasize it, and they definitely don't make for inherently interesting stories, much less interesting fantasy stories. True enough, and I respect that. I quite like the wording you've used in this post compared to what I quoted. Yes, I agree. I was taking issue with how you represented "the other side" from what seems to be your preferred style. I've had plenty of interesting fantasy stories emerge from my time with the rules (though I find many more emerge now that I use my RPG). Many others have as well. I didn't like the way that you described one side in a positive light, and the other as a bad at achieving the result it strives for. Saying "this doesn't work for me" is one thing; saying "this doesn't work" is another thing entirely. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]

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