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<blockquote data-quote="Kraydak" data-source="post: 5957324" data-attributes="member: 12306">It is kind of sad that I'm the guy saying that fighters didn't actually have it all that bad, given that I'm a fighter advocate.&nbsp; But anyways.You see, you are thinking about 3e.&nbsp; Don't.&nbsp; 3e caster/noncaster balance was an atrocity.&nbsp; (the rest of the game was a great improvement over 1/2e, mind).In 1/2e:Cloudkill?&nbsp; What Cloudkill (it had a fairly low target HD limit)Dismissal?&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Let the fighter kill it.Teleport *is* good, but it eats up a high level spell slot...Lesser Planar Binding?&nbsp; Enh?&nbsp; Just kill whatever he brought over.Dominate Person?&nbsp; Well, if the target rolls a 4 on his save, maybe you can dominate someone worth dominating.&nbsp; Before it gets dispelled.&nbsp; Same with Hold Person/Hold Monster/Polymorph.Spell casters were facing the problem of small number of high level spell slots, rarely failed Saves and a target rich environment.Something to remember is that the Fighter offense relative to the other classes (and the monsters) was several times that of max-self-buffed Druidzilla.&nbsp; Which is something that completely did not exist.&nbsp; Also, 20 HD monsters meant 20d8.&nbsp; No con modifier.&nbsp; 90hp evaporates when faced against a high level 1/2e fighter, in a way that 3e high con monsters don't.A conversion of 3e fighter to 1e effectiveness with respect to the game world/other classes would be something likedoubling his hp (and healing received)doubling his damage doneallowing a full attack action with a standard action (non-fighters getting NO extra attacks or combat self buffs) +level to all saves (on top of the normal progression)In a world where fighters get that, they do ok.&nbsp; Not great, but ok.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kraydak, post: 5957324, member: 12306"] It is kind of sad that I'm the guy saying that fighters didn't actually have it all that bad, given that I'm a fighter advocate. But anyways. You see, you are thinking about 3e. Don't. 3e caster/noncaster balance was an atrocity. (the rest of the game was a great improvement over 1/2e, mind). In 1/2e: Cloudkill? What Cloudkill (it had a fairly low target HD limit) Dismissal? Why? Let the fighter kill it. Teleport *is* good, but it eats up a high level spell slot... Lesser Planar Binding? Enh? Just kill whatever he brought over. Dominate Person? Well, if the target rolls a 4 on his save, maybe you can dominate someone worth dominating. Before it gets dispelled. Same with Hold Person/Hold Monster/Polymorph. Spell casters were facing the problem of small number of high level spell slots, rarely failed Saves and a target rich environment. Something to remember is that the Fighter offense relative to the other classes (and the monsters) was several times that of max-self-buffed Druidzilla. Which is something that completely did not exist. Also, 20 HD monsters meant 20d8. No con modifier. 90hp evaporates when faced against a high level 1/2e fighter, in a way that 3e high con monsters don't. A conversion of 3e fighter to 1e effectiveness with respect to the game world/other classes would be something like doubling his hp (and healing received) doubling his damage done allowing a full attack action with a standard action (non-fighters getting NO extra attacks or combat self buffs) +level to all saves (on top of the normal progression) In a world where fighters get that, they do ok. Not great, but ok. [/QUOTE]

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