Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="NotAYakk" data-source="post: 5960991" data-attributes="member: 72555">So, let's play with creating a D&D.next simple fighter that scales to complex.  I like proofs of concept.HP: Con+12 at level 1, +6 per level afterwards.AC/ATK: Flat, or close enough as makes no difference.Strength bonus: Flat, or close enough as makes no difference.Tools: Unchanged after first level.  Any upgrade in weapons/armor will be an additional balance module.Simple fighter offensive goal: Deals a flat percentage of a fighter's HP per hit as you gain levels.  At level 1, is significantly better at hitting things with weapons than other classes, to give them design space to have their own significant power boosts.  Basic attacks are sufficient to generate this power.So, the first proposal: at level 1, the fighter deals 2[W] damage with every hit.  That is your fighter offensive feature, and maybe a +3 proficiency with all weapons.Using a 1d12 weapon with a strength of 16-18, the fighter deals an average of 16-17 damage.So the fighter deals 62% to 77% of his own HP in damage on a hit.(I'll leave the multiple target option out of this for now).At level 10, the fighter will have 76 to 80 HP, and deal 50 to 58 average damage.  Subtract 3-4 strength bonus and we get 47 to 54.  Divide by 6.5 and we get about 8[W] damage, or +7[W] over 9 levels.That might be a bit steep.  So we'll give the Fighter extra HP at level 1 somehow.  Say, racial HD -- you start the game with a class HD and a racial HD, and HP from your race.  Humans have a d8 racial HD (and +4 HP at level 1).  The level 1 14 con fighter now has 30 HP at level 1, and the Fighter deals an average of 16-17 damage, or 53% to 57% of the fighter's HP.The level 10 fighter now has 80 to 84 HP, which aligns with ~45 HP in damage, ~6[W] damage.  Or +1[W] damage every 2 levels.That works.  Throw in some abilities on the other half of the levels (maybe the multi-attack option).Defensively, we want the Fighter to be a better bag of HP than a cleric healing herself.  The level 1 fighter in this thought experiment has 30 HP, and a 1d12 and 1d8 HD.  A level 1 12 con human cleric has 24 HP, 2d8 HD, and 2 casts of cure light wounds for 2d8+6 HP total, or 48 HP/day.The fighter only has 41 HP/day he can contribute.First fix: fighters start with 3 HD, and gain 2 HD each level afterwards (but not double HP).  So the fighter now has 54 HP per day at level 1, more than the cleric.The next problem is burst tanking.  The cleric has 24+15 = 39 HP they can consume in a given fight by self-healing, while the Fighter has only 30.A simple solution to this is to allow the Fighter to use their HD.  A fighter can spend an action to gain temporary HP by rolling a HD.  As the fighter gains levels, the fighter can roll more than one HD as an action in this manner (say, 1 HD for every 2 or 3 fighter levels -- have it scale at roughly the same rate as a cleric's healing spells scale).The fighter now starts with ~36 HP, and can burn actions to reach up to the full 54 HP in a single fight (but that cripples the fighter offensively).Now we have a simple fighter that scales with level.  So long as cleric healing doesn't grow quadratically, the Fighter can actually outtank a cleric (which hasn't been possible for a few versions of D&D).Throw in some kind of multiple attack option (say, a fighter can split their attack into same-[W]-count attacks on multiple targets), make sure that the Fighter's high HP is an effective barrier to save-or-die and save-or-suck abilities, and this character is "good to go" all the way to level 20.  (or do things like allow the Fighter to sacrifice a HD for a reroll on a save)The bonus [W] mentioned above would be a per-turn resource, not a per-attack resource (so multiple attack abilities wouldn't make the Fighter into a instant-death machine).Now, add some complexity and flexibility without adding power.Allow the fighter to sacrifice [W]s to do mighty feats of arms on an attack.  Prone, disarm, flurries of blows, knock off balance, armor piercing strikes, parry, trap, entangle, fake weakness, cripple limb, drive back, lure forward, blind, intimidate/fear, pin, knock out of the air, coordinate assault, etc.  Maybe make a mighty feat of arms halve the number of bonus [W] you use, but grant a DC increase for each [W] sacrificed.  Some of them might do different things based on the target's HP, or even target's HP as a fraction of your max HP or multiple of your Fighter Level.  Have a bunch of such attacks, and throw in that using a trick that the opponent has seen you do grants the opponent advantage on the save.  Fighters would gain these mighty feats of arms "automatically" as they leveled from their own training, and/or could learn additional such feats from instructors, mystical training scrolls, or the like (depending on sub-genre).Or, if you'd rather use the contest system and not give the fighter special abilities, we just grant the Fighter a bonus on the contest equal to the number of bonus [W] sacrificed in the attack.The next level of complexity might add attack combos, or weapon vs armor type tables, or hero points, a parry/block/riposte subsystem, weapon specialization, or a myriad of other choices....Now, I'm not happy I had to inflate the HP of a level 1 Fighter up to 30 to make the above work.  But as a proof of concept, it isn't half bad I don't think.We have a simple fighter who auto-scales, and isn't made obsolete by cleric healing, thief damage, monster HP inflation, or wizard attack spells.  And a system that would give the Fighter a set of abilities similar to 4e Fighters as "riders" on their standard attack (where the fighter gives up damage to cripple the target).He's ridiculously tough, deals ridiculous damage, and isn't magical (just supernaturally damaging and tough at high levels).At low levels, the Fighter is just ridiculously tough.  So if you want a gritty game, limiting the game to levels 1-3 would result in a level 3 fighter being able to take on a half-dozen human or hobgoblin guards at once (I did a quick simulation, and a bunch of 14 HP guardsmen could beat the simple fighter if there where 6 of them, and lost by a hair if there was only 5).  That is well within the realm of swords and sorcery.The above fighter, at level X, has roughly the strength of X men.  Which lines up with OD&D power scales.</blockquote>

Verification