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Complexity as a Barrier to Playing Dungeons & Dragons
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<blockquote data-quote="Scurvy_Platypus" data-source="post: 5508306" data-attributes="member: 43283"><p>No, that's just having the pendulum swing back the other way; it's not a real solution, just switching the problem from too much complexity for one group, to too much simplicity for another.</p><p></p><p>What _needs_ to happen is for both groups to have an option. It's not likely going to happen though and my personal bet is that it will continue being more complex than less complex. The simplest reason is, the formula has worked so far and they're not going to take a chance when things are already iffy.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's a certain element of truth, but more than that. Look at videogames and movies. 2 other industries where there's little done "outside the box", mostly just rehashing of what's already been done. If you can't describe your project in terms of how it's like 2 other already successful projects, it's difficult to get the go-ahead. I mean, Francis Ford Copella has a freaking wine business, just so he can finance doing movies he wants to do.</p><p></p><p>And let's be honest... gamers don't really reward things that are _that_ different. Most people don't, regardless of what the field is. Most people want a little something different, but not _too_ different. It's like sex... maybe for being different, they'll leave the lights off instead of on, or they'll try it in the living room instead of just the bedroom. But handcuffs? No, that's way too far out there.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I'd disagree. That's sheer laziness on the part of the game producers (designers and publishers). That's saying, "Here's this product we want you to buy. You need to go and recruit 5 other people to play it,you all need to buy the books, and oh yeah... One of you slobs needs to teach everyone else." Now, that's currently the way it's _already_ done.</p><p></p><p>And again, you're making the assumption that there _is_ a "skill gap". As if everyone is supposed to want to become this "expert".</p><p></p><p>Not everyone wants to be an "expert". Period. "Yeah dude, I know this totally awesome game. You're going to suck for a year or so, but after that you should be up to speed. You'll need to spend a few hundred dollars on books and you'll totally want to get a subscription to their online only service too. The usual schedule is to meet once a week for about 4 to 5 hours. So, when do you want to start?"</p><p></p><p>That's a sell that only works for a very particular sort of person.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And that really has nothing to do with anything. The conversation is about D&D. This board is pretty much about D&D and D&D is the number one game out there. Yeah, any hack with a keyboard can put out an rpg... and how are the actual _new_ players going to find out about it? Are all the small press, indy, free rpgs being put out geared towards new players? Players that prefer less complexity?</p><p></p><p>Complexity _is_ a barrier to playing D&D. Since D&D is the number one face for rpgs, that means that complexity is a barrier for getting people to play rpgs.</p><p></p><p>Pop quiz... have you played Faery's Tale, Witch Girls Adventures, or Best Friends? Have you even heard of them? How about Talisanta? How many groups do you know playing _any_ of them on a consistent basis? I'm willing to bet that for even 1 group that's even _heard_ of just one of those games, there's 5+ groups playing D&D.</p><p></p><p>Sure, there's plenty of lower complexity rpgs out there and even free ones. They're also almost never going to be found b rpg newbies; even amongst online gamers, a significant porton turn up their noses at them, unless they can buy a print copy in an rpg store.</p><p></p><p>Speaking as a fan and strong supporter of homebrew, small press, and indy rpgs? In my opinion, it's one step above ghetto gaming. You talk about shared narrative control (something that most rpg newbies expect since gamers lie and refer to rpgs as "shared storytelling") and most D&D GMs are going to sneer and mutter.</p><p></p><p>And leaving all that aside... Do you know what's _actually_ involved in putting together an rpg? Yeah, you can do it "cheap". And it's going to look cheap and appeal to a limited number of people too. Writing, editing, art, printing costs, distribution... It's not like you can type this up in Word and then sell it online and expect you're going to be getting _new_ people into the hobby that way. Hell, you'll barely get any of the freaking hardcore gamers to pick it up and they're already more inclined to give you money.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Scurvy_Platypus, post: 5508306, member: 43283"] No, that's just having the pendulum swing back the other way; it's not a real solution, just switching the problem from too much complexity for one group, to too much simplicity for another. What _needs_ to happen is for both groups to have an option. It's not likely going to happen though and my personal bet is that it will continue being more complex than less complex. The simplest reason is, the formula has worked so far and they're not going to take a chance when things are already iffy. There's a certain element of truth, but more than that. Look at videogames and movies. 2 other industries where there's little done "outside the box", mostly just rehashing of what's already been done. If you can't describe your project in terms of how it's like 2 other already successful projects, it's difficult to get the go-ahead. I mean, Francis Ford Copella has a freaking wine business, just so he can finance doing movies he wants to do. And let's be honest... gamers don't really reward things that are _that_ different. Most people don't, regardless of what the field is. Most people want a little something different, but not _too_ different. It's like sex... maybe for being different, they'll leave the lights off instead of on, or they'll try it in the living room instead of just the bedroom. But handcuffs? No, that's way too far out there. I'd disagree. That's sheer laziness on the part of the game producers (designers and publishers). That's saying, "Here's this product we want you to buy. You need to go and recruit 5 other people to play it,you all need to buy the books, and oh yeah... One of you slobs needs to teach everyone else." Now, that's currently the way it's _already_ done. And again, you're making the assumption that there _is_ a "skill gap". As if everyone is supposed to want to become this "expert". Not everyone wants to be an "expert". Period. "Yeah dude, I know this totally awesome game. You're going to suck for a year or so, but after that you should be up to speed. You'll need to spend a few hundred dollars on books and you'll totally want to get a subscription to their online only service too. The usual schedule is to meet once a week for about 4 to 5 hours. So, when do you want to start?" That's a sell that only works for a very particular sort of person. And that really has nothing to do with anything. The conversation is about D&D. This board is pretty much about D&D and D&D is the number one game out there. Yeah, any hack with a keyboard can put out an rpg... and how are the actual _new_ players going to find out about it? Are all the small press, indy, free rpgs being put out geared towards new players? Players that prefer less complexity? Complexity _is_ a barrier to playing D&D. Since D&D is the number one face for rpgs, that means that complexity is a barrier for getting people to play rpgs. Pop quiz... have you played Faery's Tale, Witch Girls Adventures, or Best Friends? Have you even heard of them? How about Talisanta? How many groups do you know playing _any_ of them on a consistent basis? I'm willing to bet that for even 1 group that's even _heard_ of just one of those games, there's 5+ groups playing D&D. Sure, there's plenty of lower complexity rpgs out there and even free ones. They're also almost never going to be found b rpg newbies; even amongst online gamers, a significant porton turn up their noses at them, unless they can buy a print copy in an rpg store. Speaking as a fan and strong supporter of homebrew, small press, and indy rpgs? In my opinion, it's one step above ghetto gaming. You talk about shared narrative control (something that most rpg newbies expect since gamers lie and refer to rpgs as "shared storytelling") and most D&D GMs are going to sneer and mutter. And leaving all that aside... Do you know what's _actually_ involved in putting together an rpg? Yeah, you can do it "cheap". And it's going to look cheap and appeal to a limited number of people too. Writing, editing, art, printing costs, distribution... It's not like you can type this up in Word and then sell it online and expect you're going to be getting _new_ people into the hobby that way. Hell, you'll barely get any of the freaking hardcore gamers to pick it up and they're already more inclined to give you money. [/QUOTE]
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