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Message: <blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7787655" data-attributes="member: 12731">Yes, it boils down to "what do you want the most, less incoming damage or more outgoing damage".In 5E D&D for instance, we've found that it is nearly impossible to build for defense (a tanking strategy). Sure, if you're lucky to find both +3 full plate and a +3 shield then maybe, but otherwise, the heavy hitters and BBEGs will still reliably punch you, and your hp will run out without help. If you could combine the fighter's armor with the barbarian's damage reduction then maybe, but there simply isn't any significant damage reduction build option in that game.In contrast, outmaneuvering and killing the enemies is a much better strategy. Monsters simply don't have the hp to last, or the mobility to compete. If everybody in the group ruthlessly minmaxes for DPS you can simply kill off the heavy hitter and thus won't need the tank. Sure, one or two characters that receive heavy flak will have to withdraw, but can soon be back in the game. If it isn't already won by then - the secret is that as long as you have fantasic DPS the combats simply don't last long enough for your lack of a tank to be a problem.tl;dr: the WotC devs completely underestimate damage and mobility and overestimate defense, making it too expensive to go defense, but entirely reasonable to go mobile and DPS. (Just consider the eleventy ways you can shoot people from range still with all the bells and whistles PF2 reserves for melee combatants to immediately realize 5E went too far)Preamble over <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />AFAIK, the shield user in PF2 is asked to give up a lot. Not only the added damage from a heavier weapon (which given the way Striking Runes work) is considerable, even before we learn how the class feats can enhance that. But you also give up one third of your actions. And you give up your reaction.Comparing the raise shield action to a third attack at -10 is crude and simplistic. I simply don't believe that's accurately representing the real cost. A move ("stride") is probably closer to the real truth - in other words, mobility. Giving up your mobility is a very hard sell, at least if PF2 is anything like 5E where mobility is king and that being able to outmaneuver the Monster Manual critters makes you play the game on Easy Mode. So I'd suggest we simply drop that third attack from the equation (let's just assume it's used for something fun and useful) - if the twohander needs to use it for a -10 attack in order to bring up the numbers, the swordandboarder have already won.Instead, what about the reaction? In 5E this could (and would) be employed for an extra attack. How about PF2? Can you set up a reliable "attack generator" that employs your reaction? If that attack isn't at -10 it obviously does mean the twohander does three real attacks compared to the shielduser's two.At higher levels, this heavy cost might be alleviated - haven't absorbed the rules completely yet.But at the first levels, where these costs are accurate, I am having a reeeaaaal hard time believing it is anywhere close to useful. (Remember other D&D games give you the +2 for free, no action or reaction needed).After all, you don't gain an always-on DR. I believe you can pretty much negate any one attack each round, but still - it's only one attack each round. In a game where everybody and his zombie gets at least two (twice as many as in other D&D games at low levels!).(I don't believe for a second it's worth going shield for the +2 only, so obviously we must discuss the shield block).So the interesting question becomes: at which level does this change and the shield becomes competitive?Obviously at high levels, where a +3 shield does mean damage is reduced ~25% the situation is much better. If by that time you have feats that mean you don't have to spend both an action and your reaction each round, this could transform the whole equation.</blockquote>

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