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*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Complexity vs. Depth -- A Look Inside Pathfinder 2nd Edition
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<blockquote data-quote="FrogReaver" data-source="post: 7788431" data-attributes="member: 6795602"><p>It almost sounds as if you believe AC isn't worth anything unless it can be stacked to absurd levels. Feel free to clarify if that isn't your real position.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can still outmaneuver and kill enemies while using a shield. This isn't 5e. Your not doing half the damage of a two handed weapon user... And it's not like the shield using PC is inherently less mobile. He just has a harder choice to make about when to be mobile because the +2 AC action is typically much better than the third attack action.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1. You can still use your reaction for the same thing the two hander does. Your making an assumption that isn't true. That you must use the shield block reaction for a shield to be worthwhile.</p><p></p><p>2. I looked at a level 7 barbarian and he was doing about 30% more damage with a 2 handed striking runed weapon as opposed 1 handed striking runed weapon (2d8 vs 2d12). (2 attacks with 1 handed vs 3 with 2 handed). Barbarians do get a nice flat damage boost so maybe that's not the best comparison but it's a scenario I'd already ran the numbers for.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You do realize the shield using PC isn't slower right? He doesn't have to use the +2 AC when the situation calls for moving. So the question is if moving is typically going to be better than +2 AC. Well it definitely is if you need to engage an enemy. But beyond that the most a move can typically be used for (except vs slow enemies) is to prevent their third attack. The third attack is maybe a 12.5% damage increase. The shield block is maybe a 25% damage decrease.</p><p></p><p>The bigger question in my mind is whether the DM will have enemies use step away tactic against a shield using pc to force them to use an action to move most turns and thus disincentivising them from using the raise a shield action. In fact, that's the exact strategy i'd employ against a shield using enemy. Attack, attack, step away. Then the most he can do is move, attack, attack. Giving up the -5 attack for a +2 ac bonus is much harder to justify IMO.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Nearly anything the 2 hander can do the shield using pc can. If there is a way to generate a reliable reaction attack then the sword and shield PC is just as capable of doing so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I actually think the reaction gets worse as you level. At least until you can make more than 1 reaction a turn (higher level fights get some abilities like that)</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The mechanics in this are familiar but significantly different that D&D game mechanics. HP pools are larger. You get more actions a round etc.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If enemy damage scales at all like PC damage then that reaction block is not going to even negate an attacks worth of damage for long.</p><p></p><p>You are also overvaluing the 2nd attack at a -5 penalty. You'll be hit more often but it's not nearly like you'll be hit twice as often.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't believe the reaction is that useful. I believe the bigger benefit is being able to get the ac boost.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Level 1. Though a have discovered a possibility listed above where the DM could make the shield reaction non useful. The attack, attack, step option. But as long as that tactic isn't being employed, shield will be great - at least for some classes.</p></blockquote><p>[/QUOTE]</p>
[QUOTE="FrogReaver, post: 7788431, member: 6795602"] It almost sounds as if you believe AC isn't worth anything unless it can be stacked to absurd levels. Feel free to clarify if that isn't your real position. You can still outmaneuver and kill enemies while using a shield. This isn't 5e. Your not doing half the damage of a two handed weapon user... And it's not like the shield using PC is inherently less mobile. He just has a harder choice to make about when to be mobile because the +2 AC action is typically much better than the third attack action. 1. You can still use your reaction for the same thing the two hander does. Your making an assumption that isn't true. That you must use the shield block reaction for a shield to be worthwhile. 2. I looked at a level 7 barbarian and he was doing about 30% more damage with a 2 handed striking runed weapon as opposed 1 handed striking runed weapon (2d8 vs 2d12). (2 attacks with 1 handed vs 3 with 2 handed). Barbarians do get a nice flat damage boost so maybe that's not the best comparison but it's a scenario I'd already ran the numbers for. You do realize the shield using PC isn't slower right? He doesn't have to use the +2 AC when the situation calls for moving. So the question is if moving is typically going to be better than +2 AC. Well it definitely is if you need to engage an enemy. But beyond that the most a move can typically be used for (except vs slow enemies) is to prevent their third attack. The third attack is maybe a 12.5% damage increase. The shield block is maybe a 25% damage decrease. The bigger question in my mind is whether the DM will have enemies use step away tactic against a shield using pc to force them to use an action to move most turns and thus disincentivising them from using the raise a shield action. In fact, that's the exact strategy i'd employ against a shield using enemy. Attack, attack, step away. Then the most he can do is move, attack, attack. Giving up the -5 attack for a +2 ac bonus is much harder to justify IMO. Nearly anything the 2 hander can do the shield using pc can. If there is a way to generate a reliable reaction attack then the sword and shield PC is just as capable of doing so. I actually think the reaction gets worse as you level. At least until you can make more than 1 reaction a turn (higher level fights get some abilities like that) The mechanics in this are familiar but significantly different that D&D game mechanics. HP pools are larger. You get more actions a round etc. If enemy damage scales at all like PC damage then that reaction block is not going to even negate an attacks worth of damage for long. You are also overvaluing the 2nd attack at a -5 penalty. You'll be hit more often but it's not nearly like you'll be hit twice as often. [B][/B] I don't believe the reaction is that useful. I believe the bigger benefit is being able to get the ac boost. Level 1. Though a have discovered a possibility listed above where the DM could make the shield reaction non useful. The attack, attack, step option. But as long as that tactic isn't being employed, shield will be great - at least for some classes.[/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]
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