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<blockquote data-quote="Raven Crowking" data-source="post: 3646830" data-attributes="member: 18280">3.X allows you start characters at levels other than 1st.....Oh my god!&nbsp; They advocate starting at 20th level!&nbsp; How munchkinny!Clearly, knowing that there are games out there that want to use options doesn't make something munchkinny overall.As far as the rest of the book goes, my groups used what we liked with very few difficulties.&nbsp; Of course, that meant making some penalties actually be penalties (when in many games they would not).&nbsp; It also almost required sandbox-style play.&nbsp; And, even then, it required inserting the....how many pages was it?&nbsp; Four?&nbsp; Ten?...errata published in Dragon to clear up some problems.(Sandbox-style play has an advantage with this sort of ruleset, in that the players choose the level of challenge - and hence reward - that they feel capable of facing.&nbsp; So long as all of the PCs are roughly on the same starting keel, it can work.&nbsp; Of course, my games have always had a lot to do with talking to people as well as bashing down dungeon doors, and I've never run into a PC who didn't want to mete justice regardless of his social class.&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin&nbsp; &nbsp; :D"&nbsp; data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" /> )Even so, I will certainly allow that the 1e UA was the munchkinniest tome to come down the pike at the time.&nbsp; I'm just not certain that it was the munchkinniest tome to ever come down the pike.When 2e was all the rage, the Complete books caused some folks problems, I know.&nbsp; They worked well with my DMing style, but that was a matter of luck, sandbox-style play, and good players being on my side.&nbsp; Some of those Complete books might vie with the old UA.&nbsp; Heck, letting OA characters into a standard D&amp;D game could be pretty munchkinny, too, if the DM's eye wasn't on the ball.Each edition has good things about it, and bad.&nbsp; Power creep occurred in 1e as it did in later editions.&nbsp; I agree that UA wasn't power &quot;creep&quot;, though.&nbsp; Or, if it was, it failed it's Move Silently check.RC</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Raven Crowking, post: 3646830, member: 18280"] 3.X allows you start characters at levels other than 1st.....Oh my god! They advocate starting at 20th level! How munchkinny! Clearly, knowing that there are games out there that want to use options doesn't make something munchkinny overall. As far as the rest of the book goes, my groups used what we liked with very few difficulties. Of course, that meant making some penalties actually [b][i]be[/i][/b] penalties (when in many games they would not). It also almost required sandbox-style play. And, even then, it required inserting the....how many pages was it? Four? Ten?...errata published in Dragon to clear up some problems. (Sandbox-style play has an advantage with this sort of ruleset, in that the players choose the level of challenge - and hence reward - that they feel capable of facing. So long as all of the PCs are roughly on the same starting keel, it can work. Of course, my games have always had a lot to do with talking to people as well as bashing down dungeon doors, and I've never run into a PC who didn't want to mete justice regardless of his social class. :D ) Even so, I will certainly allow that the 1e UA was the munchkinniest tome to come down the pike [i]at the time[/i]. I'm just not certain that it was the munchkinniest tome to [i]ever[/i] come down the pike. When 2e was all the rage, the Complete books caused some folks problems, I know. They worked well with my DMing style, but that was a matter of luck, sandbox-style play, and good players being on my side. Some of those Complete books might vie with the old UA. Heck, letting OA characters into a standard D&D game could be pretty munchkinny, too, if the DM's eye wasn't on the ball. Each edition has good things about it, and bad. Power creep occurred in 1e as it did in later editions. I agree that UA wasn't power "creep", though. Or, if it was, it failed it's Move Silently check. RC [/QUOTE]

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