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<blockquote data-quote="RFisher" data-source="post: 3663324" data-attributes="member: 3608">I don't know, but I tend to think that there was a degree of role-playing in wargames &amp; other games that lacked referees long before D&amp;D came along. Multiplayer computer games definately have the potential for some amount of role-playing.But, perhaps I misunderstand the term.When I use the term &quot;role-playing game&quot; I am talking about a game that is only limited by the imagination of the participants. It is a game of improvisation &amp; imagination. It is &quot;Let's pretend&quot; with rules or conventions to resolve disagreements between the participants. Typically this is a referee or GM, but there are games I would call RPGs that lack a GM in the conventional sense.You know, some of the &quot;social&quot; MUDs I used to participate in came pretty close to that. That was maybe something of a middle ground between computers as a medium for RPG play &amp; actual CRPGs.Indeed, this is one of the areas in which 3e tends to lose my interest: It's attempt to take the DM out of the equation. When played that way, it becomes--to me--a computer game without the benefit of the computer. &amp; yes, I've experienced older editions played that way, &amp; that's even worse as they weren't designed to be played that way at all.&amp; yeah, I'm limiting &quot;role-playing game&quot; beyond the sum of its parts. There's nothing unusual about that. (&quot;America&quot; is technically a more generic term than &quot;USA&quot;, but they are widely used as synonyms. An &quot;airship&quot; could be anything that flies, but it is generally used only for dirigibles. Even &quot;dirigible&quot; itself means only &quot;steerable&quot;, with the &quot;balloon&quot; part elided. Like &quot;auto&quot; often means &quot;automobile&quot; although technically it only means &quot;self-&quot;.) When I'm worried that my use of it may be ambiguous, I tend to try to qualify it.Heck, I'm not even sure that RPGs qualify as &quot;games&quot;.Anyway, I think most of us can agree that TRPGs &amp; CRPGs are quite different &amp; that we enjoy them for different reasons.There is a certain amount of truth to this.On the other hand, this is the limitation that I want from the game. Being surprised by other people's imagination &amp; working out a shared imagining... That's where the fun is.The limitations imposed on me by a computer game, however, are more often the kinds of limitations I don't want.It may seldom happen in your games, but it is quite common in others.I do run games in which I have nigh nothing prepared. I simply ask, &quot;What do you do?&quot; &amp; we make it up as we go along. But that's a carrying it to an extreme example.It's being able to negotiate the GMs prepared adventure in ways the GM didn't have to imagine during preparation. I often create obstacles without a way around them. I want to see how the players will surprise me, should they choose to attempt passing it.Yeah, on rare occasions you find a solution in a computer game that the creators didn't intend, but this is fairly common at my group's table.&amp; when we play Toon...nobody knows what is going to happen before it happens.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="RFisher, post: 3663324, member: 3608"] I don't know, but I tend to think that there was a degree of role-playing in wargames & other games that lacked referees long before D&D came along. Multiplayer computer games definately have the potential for some amount of role-playing. But, perhaps I misunderstand the term. When I use the term "role-playing game" I am talking about a game that is only limited by the imagination of the participants. It is a game of improvisation & imagination. It is "Let's pretend" with rules or conventions to resolve disagreements between the participants. Typically this is a referee or GM, but there are games I would call RPGs that lack a GM in the conventional sense. You know, some of the "social" MUDs I used to participate in came pretty close to that. That was maybe something of a middle ground between computers as a medium for RPG play & actual CRPGs. Indeed, this is one of the areas in which 3e tends to lose my interest: It's attempt to take the DM out of the equation. When played that way, it becomes--to me--a computer game without the benefit of the computer. & yes, I've experienced older editions played that way, & that's even worse as they weren't designed to be played that way at all. & yeah, I'm limiting "role-playing game" beyond the sum of its parts. There's nothing unusual about that. ("America" is technically a more generic term than "USA", but they are widely used as synonyms. An "airship" could be anything that flies, but it is generally used only for dirigibles. Even "dirigible" itself means only "steerable", with the "balloon" part elided. Like "auto" often means "automobile" although technically it only means "self-".) When I'm worried that my use of it may be ambiguous, I tend to try to qualify it. Heck, I'm not even sure that RPGs qualify as "games". Anyway, I think most of us can agree that TRPGs & CRPGs are quite different & that we enjoy them for different reasons. There is a certain amount of truth to this. On the other hand, this is the limitation that I [i]want[/i] from the game. Being surprised by other people's imagination & working out a shared imagining... That's where the fun is. The limitations imposed on me by a computer game, however, are more often the kinds of limitations I don't want. It may seldom happen in your games, but it is quite common in others. I do run games in which I have nigh nothing prepared. I simply ask, "What do you do?" & we make it up as we go along. But that's a carrying it to an extreme example. It's being able to negotiate the GMs prepared adventure in ways the GM didn't have to imagine during preparation. I often create obstacles without a way around them. I want to see how the players will surprise me, should they choose to attempt passing it. Yeah, on rare occasions you find a solution in a computer game that the creators didn't intend, but this is fairly common at my group's table. & when we play Toon...[i]nobody[/i] knows what is going to happen before it happens. [/QUOTE]

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