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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IceBear" data-source="post: 525572" data-attributes="member: 1118">I understand what people are saying about Reflex save not scaling, but using the attack bonus just seems wrong too.  I can think of a couple monsters with high attack bonuses that I just can't picture reacting quickly to a tumbler.As was pointed out, making it too hard to tumble is hurting the PC who spent valuable skill points on these skills, and with proper use of all the modifiers for tumbling in Song and Silence can help reduce the Tumble check.Allowing a Reflex save (as per Song and Silence I think) just means that once a rogue hits +14 Tumble it isn't guaranteed that he will succeed.  The rogue spent a lot of his skill points to get to that point so he still should succeed most of the time.  However, all it takes is someone to roll a 20 on their Reflex save and no matter how high the tumble check was, the rogue is taking an AoO.  That's why I think I'll use the Song and Silence variant.  It's an offical variant, and I don't want to screw the PCs too much.  If my group still feels that Tumbling is too good, then maybe we'll look at another variant.Edit: Possibly, to reflex experience, I might add the defender's level to the Reflex save.IceBear</blockquote>