Concentration check on casting defensively

[poilbrun]

Hello all!

Do any of you have an house rule regarding Concentration checks to cast defensively? Once a caster has reached a certain point, if he has maxed out his Concentration skill, he cannot fail his check to cast defensively, even for high level spells. I find it sad that even facing a very powerful fighter or monster, the caster does not care at all.

It just happened in my games that the cleric was separated from the group and had to face the cohort of the main villain. He was down to 20 hp, I was already thinking "cool, a prisoner!", when he casted heal defensively. Bam, 100 hp! He did it twice, and of course my fighter could not cure himself since taking a potion provokes an attack of opportunity. End result: the cleric defeated a fighter two levels higher than him.

I was thinking maybe adding the BAB of the enemy to the check, but that would create some problems too: first of all, it basically means that no matter what level the caster is, it will always be as difficult to cast a spell of a given level if he faces a fighter of the same level; second, it nearly forces every caster to max out his concentration skill, knowing that doing so only just cancels the bonus that fighters automatically gain; third, it gets complicated if the caster has several enemies with different BAB threatening him; finally, it forces a revision of the base DC, other wise high-level spell are nearly impossible to pull off.

Another idea I had was to have the concentration roll act as an AC. To see if he gets an attack of opprotunity, the character/monster that threatens the caster rolls an attack roll against 10 (or 15, would have to be playtested) + result of Concentration check - spell level. If he/it succeeds, he gets an attack of opportunity and resolve it normally. This looks good but adds complexity and one roll per enemy threatening the caster.

Any comment or idea?

 

[jayaint]

Honestly, with Combat Casting, Skill Focus (Concentration) and I think there is even an Improved Combat Casting floating around out there... I don't know what to do. However, in the meantime, all my clerics will continue to make room for those feats as they are the only thing that let a low level martial-cleric survive.

-jay

 

[Razz0putin]

I was thinking maybe adding the BAB of the enemy to the check, but that would create some problems too: first of all, it basically means that no matter what level the caster is, it will always be as difficult to cast a spell of a given level if he faces a fighter of the same level; second, it nearly forces every caster to max out his concentration skill, knowing that doing so only just cancels the bonus that fighters automatically gain; third, it gets complicated if the caster has several enemies with different BAB threatening him; finally, it forces a revision of the base DC, other wise high-level spell are nearly impossible to pull off.

Any comment or idea?[/QUOTE]

I'd do it like Monte Cookes Arcana Unearthed/Arcana Evolved it's based off of DC 10 + BAB + level of spell. This makes it easier to cast against most people but not so much when you're taking on the main villian as it should be. As for it being difficult to pull off casting a spell if facing a fighter of the same level well IT SHOULD BE. That's what he does hit people especially hit people who are trying to cast spells in opposition of what he's doing.

 

[reanjr]

Well, there's always readying an action to attack a spellcaster. That still works if it causes enough damage.

But I agree, the DC is too low by mid-level. Or even low-level for that matter.

 

[Arkhandus]

Adding the BAB to the Concentration DC would be evil. Then no mage would ever get a spell off when in dire straits. The BAB of opponents will usually be close to the caster's number of Concentration ranks, give or take a few, so the most the mage will get overall is something like success on a 15+ base roll, or maybe even needing an 18+ or so.

Just give appropriately-high-level/high-hit-die critters the Spellcasting Harrier epic feat if you want to make casting truly difficult in melee. Then again, it'll probably become suicidal instead of simply difficult, but at least it'll be within the normal rules.

Spellcasting Harrier is a feat from the Epic Level Handbook, but also available free in the 3.5 System Reference Document, at the website of Wizards of the Coast. Spellcasting Harrier I think has simply a BAB requirement of +21 or something. It makes it so anyone trying to cast defensively within your threatened area always provokes an attack of opportunity. So it makes casting defensively irrelevant. Instead the caster likely gets damaged or killed, and rolls Concentration to continue the spell despite damage, in addition to rolling to cast successfully defensively (because failing that fizzles the spell too).

Or you could use one of the other posters' recommendation: have your warriors ready an action each round to simply attack the caster as soon as they start casting a spell. You can even have archers do that, so long as they see the caster begin a spell. Then the caster will get damaged, have to roll Concentration against the damage, and even if that doesn't interrupt the spell they'll still have to roll Concentration to cast defensively (if they were trying to in the first place, that is). They won't get the Combat Casting bonus on the first check, because that will be a check to cast despite damage, not to cast defensively.

 

[Razz0putin]

I think you're all forgetting that casting a spell while someone is in your face means someone in the party messed up or someone on the other side did good. It's not an automatic right that you get to cast spells. If a fighter type gets in a spellcasters face good for him. He should've never been given the chance.

 

[Razz0putin]

and another thing readying an action for someone to cast a spell is just silly. The rules as written say you can take a 5' step and cast a spell no prob, as I said silly and metagamy. If you're in a fight with someone and they're trying to do you bad you're not going to sit there while they step back 5' you're going to be all up in their stuff. This is just a silly rule that will not be in my game.

 

[Liquidsabre]

Readied-actions and grappling are a fighters friend and a casters worst nightmare. I wouldn't sweat this casting defensively stuff. A high-level caster is hard to interrupt in the midst of combat without going to the extra effort to disrupt their casting, they are highly skilled and traiend to do so for casting is their bread and buttter. The low-level casters are easy pickings since they can hardly cast in the thick of it! Mmmmm fiber!

 

[jayaint]

Another thing to remember is that wizzies and sorcerous types only have a d4 per level. That alone should persuade them from waltzing on in to combat very often. Even with buffs on, it makes for a pretty quick "whoops", an attack of oppurtunity here, a "1" on a casting defensive check.... There's not much room for error with such a low HP total.

 

[IndyPendant]

Guys, original question? Fighter vs cleric?

Grappling is great vs arcane casters. But even a 12th melee-oriented cleric has a reasonably good chance of beating a fighter's grapple, and if he's got his buff spells up, often has higher pluses! And they have, on average, only 1hp/level less than a fighter--and often more hit points if fully buffed!

Now admittedly grappling can still be a viable option for a fighter two levels higher, but it's hardly a certain win, and even then unless the fighter is built around close combat, then the fighter is also significantly weakened, because he can't use the majority of his abilities either.

Really, the best tactic against a cleric is for the fighter to have a supporting caster, or a swarm of minions. Unfortunately.

Edit: Oops. As to the concentration checks...

I'm not really sure it's an issue, except in isolated cases like this one. If you really think it's an issue, I would recommend one of two things: a minor change would be to make a natural '1' always fail; that's what I'm going to do if it ever becomes an issue in my games. Or have the concentration checks be based on caster level--but then give casters the option to cast their spells at a lower caster level if they wish.