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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Kelleris" data-source="post: 3093995" data-attributes="member: 19130">[Standard disclaimer - I checked back to the last 7 pages for an answer to this question, but it's possible I missed something or didn't go back far enough.  Apologies in advance.]I recently joined a group in progress after moving, and pulled out an older Bard build to join the campaign with.  Now, this character has both shadow conjuration and shadow evocation on his class spell list, and as I looked through my books for spells to copy I noticed that there are a few cool/powerful spells that can be mimicked by these spells but that also happen to be buffs (e.g., greater mage armor and create magic tattoo).  I just ignored the possibility of buffing up with shadow versions of these spells for the first time out, but our next session is tomorrow and it's been bothering me.So the question is, can I buff myself or others with shadow spells?Now, I can see the argument going either way with regard to buffing myself.  Legally speaking, I can forfeit the saving throw to disbelieve just like I can forfeit the saving throw allowed for harmless spells.  On the other hand, it sounds prima facie stupid to belief in my own illusions.  But I can see it working and making sense depending on how you interpret what the shadow spells are actually doing.  Consider two possibilities:(a)  The shadow spell is a real spell effect, but one that because of its quasi-real nature can be resisted both mentally and physically.  So you make a Will save to disrupt the effect the shadows have on your mind and body, and then another save to resist the mostly-ablated effect that remains.  If this is the case, if you deliberately don't fight the effect of the shadow spell, it's identical in all ways to the non-shadow version.  This possibility seems to be indicated by the wording of the "disbelief" variety of save, which says that "a successful save lets [as opposed to "means," say, or "indicates that"] the subject ignore the effect," indicating that you may "play along with" the spell if you so desire by allowing it to affect you.  Basically, in this case resisting a shadow spell requires an active mental act, rather than the passive one of simply being affected and noting that it's not entirely real.  Obviously this doesn't let you stand on a figment, since you couldn't do that even if you believed the spell to be real since the spell's effect is only an appearance, but since shadow effects are potential realities, perhaps "playing along" lets you actualize that reality with respect to yourself (which would be the flavor text of forfeiting your Will save).(b)  The shadow spell is largely fake, and somehow the "power of suggestion" deals 80% of the acid damage to you when you're hit by Melf's acid arrow, while the actually real portion of the acid deals only 20% of the damage.  To me, this strains credulity even more than the idea that you could choose to play along with something you know to be only quasi-real, especially since the power of suggestion is bearing an awful lot of the load here for a spell that isn't even mind-affecting (for instance, you could hit something with no mind at all, like an animated object, with a shadow fireball, and apparently the power of suggestion will do 80% of the fire damage on a failed Will save).  So it actually makes more sense to me that the situation is one in which there are two active components to resisting shadow spells, one mental and one physical, and therefore you can voluntarily choose not to resist on either score.  On the other hand, mindless non-creature objects are indicated as automatically saving in the spell description (even though as soon as you cast animate objects on them, they have to save again), so perhaps the intend was that the power of suggestion is the load-bearing part of the effect, which would mean that the mental component of the save is essentially passive.So, I'd like to solicit the board's opinions on this matter.  Is disbelieving a shadow conjuration or shadow evocation an active Will save or a passive Will save.Oh, I should add - my active/passive distinction doesn't change the fact that the save is reactive in any case, of course.  A Reflex save versus a fireball is active in my sense because you're actually moving your body in a deliberate way so as to minimize the damage you take, while a Fortitude save against poison would be passive in my sense because you just get poisoned and all you can do is pray that your physical constitution is hardy enough to fight off the poison's effects.</blockquote>

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