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<blockquote data-quote="Vegepygmy" data-source="post: 5887896" data-attributes="member: 40109">Did you ever try grappling him? His magical plate and shield would be worthless against your touch attack to start the grapple, and no help in opposing your (likely superior) grapple check, and once grappled, he's not casting much of anything.&nbsp;Honestly, if you were playing a monk and couldn't stop him from getting a 1-round casting time summoning spell off at least half the time, you were doing something really wrong.&nbsp;How many summoning spells would he have prepared? Or could he spontaneously cast it? (Not that it'd matter, if you had him grappled.)&nbsp;I know these &quot;hypothetical arena battles&quot; people do are of little to no relevance when discussing whether one class is better than another in actual play, but even for whatever limited value they do have, I usually see some variation of the above story, which just makes me suspect the player of the &quot;inferior class&quot; didn't know what he was doing.&nbsp;(And spare me the freedom of movement rebuttal. There will always be some specific circumstance that can be used to &quot;prove&quot; how one ability trumps another -- just like grappling trumps magical plate and shield.)</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Vegepygmy, post: 5887896, member: 40109"] Did you ever try grappling him? His magical plate and shield would be worthless against your touch attack to start the grapple, and no help in opposing your (likely superior) grapple check, and once grappled, he's not casting much of anything. Honestly, if you were playing a monk and couldn't stop him from getting a 1-round casting time summoning spell off at least half the time, you were doing something really wrong. How many summoning spells would he have prepared? Or could he spontaneously cast it? (Not that it'd matter, if you had him grappled.) I know these "hypothetical arena battles" people do are of little to no relevance when discussing whether one class is better than another in actual play, but even for whatever limited value they [I]do[/I] have, I usually see some variation of the above story, which just makes me suspect the player of the "inferior class" didn't know what he was doing. (And spare me the [I]freedom of movement[/I] rebuttal. There will always be some specific circumstance that can be used to "prove" how one ability trumps another -- just like grappling trumps magical plate and shield.) [/QUOTE]

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