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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mustrum_Ridcully" data-source="post: 4944160" data-attributes="member: 710">I think a problem is that for every Bard that has the ability to help you there are dozens of characters in the same role that can't help you. And that is true for every class and role combination. And we don't really want to add up with a situation where the only viable builds are those specialized in condition-circumvention. At least I don't want to end there. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />- Free extra or rather "out-of-turn" saves are great - but not all monsters have powers that grant a save. - A granted save is not the same as an automatic success, either. - Most save granting abilities are encounter or daily powers. Those that aren't are still conditional on successful attacks, usually. - It doesn't help if the monster can repeatedly apply the same condition. Especially when it can apply them to multiple members of the group and/or the Leader. I think the latter might be the biggest killer. A monster with an encounter power that stuns the entire party is not as bad as an at-will attack power that stuns a single party member for one turn. The first typically creates big excitement and worry - because the party doesn't know when they snap out of it and has to see how they get molested by monsters. The encounter might start slow and frustrating, but in the end, the party really can turn the tide. But the second frustrates the individual player character that is consistently subject to this power. If multiple enemies can do the same or at least similar things, there is also no clear way to turn the tide - you just have to struggle through the entire encounter.  Many monsters have reach or range at their disposal so that even the "weaker" conditions like daze or immobilize benefit them considerably more than as if the PC apply them to the monsters.It also tends to hit classes focusing on melee harder than those focusing on range. Most conditions - except stunned basically - allow you to keep attacking in some way - as long as you get to your enemy. Maybe that is a kind of unintentional or intentional balancing factor for the often higher damage output generated with weapon use. But it's not really an enjoyable one.</blockquote>

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