NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6584539" data-attributes="member: 42582">Passionate responses to what?To being told that they aren't RPGing but are boardgaming? Or MMOing? Or Storygaming?To being told that they need trainer wheels, or need their hands held? Or are roll-playing and not roleplaying?To being told that they hate D&D? Or wrecked D&D? Or both?In my personal experience on and around these boards, many of those who do not want to play 4e seem unable to articulate that desire in terms that don't imply universal, normative judgments of those who do enjoy it. The most notorious, obviously, was <a href="http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/1545/roleplaying-games/dissociated-mechanic" target="_blank">Justin Alexander's</a>, but it was just a prototype for many others that followed.Justin Alexander's essay also illustrates a recurrent feature of criticisms of 4e, namely, attacking it for possessing certain features while praising other RPGs that appear to possess the same features. For instance, Alexander saysIn the case of Wushu, fidelity to the game world is being traded off in favor of narrative control. In the case of 4th Edition, fidelity to the game world is being traded off in favor of a tactical miniatures game.The "narrative control" that he refers to in relation to Wushu has, some paragraphs earlier in his essay, been described as follows:“I leap into the air (1), drawing my swords in a single fluid motion (2), parrying the samurai’s sword as I pass above his head (3), and land behind him (4).” . . . n the case of Wushu these mechanics were designed to encourage dynamic, over-the-top action sequences: Since it’s just as easy to slide dramatically under a car and emerge on the other side with guns blazing as it is to duck behind cover and lay down suppressing fire, the mechanics make it possible for the players to do whatever the coolest thing they can possibly think of is (without worrying about whether or not the awesomeness they’re imagining will make it too difficult for their character to pull it off).No doubt it's obvious to Justin Alexander why leaping into the air, drawing one's swords in a single fluid motion, parrying the samuria's sword and landing behind him; or sliding dramatically under a car and emerging on the other side with guns blazing; is awesome narrative control, whereas having the goblins charge the fighter but be cut down en route (Come and Get It); or having the sorcerer teleport out of the exploding fireball, thereby taking no damage (Swift Escape); or having the evil war devil's allies besiege a protagonist (Besieged Foe); is not awesome at all but rather a mere "tactical miniatures game".But the difference escapes me. My take-away is that Alexander enjoys Wushu, doesn't enjoy 4e - perhaps because it uses too many miniatures and not enough cars? - and felt the need to write thousands of words explaining why this wasn't a mere preference for cars over miniatures, but was an intellectually-driven choice that any rational person should agree with.To whom? I enjoy it - which is the main criterion on which I make my decisions about how to spend my leisure and hobby time!One thing I notice is that there is not a lot of actual play posting on ENworld. I post a lot of actual play reports. I'm happy to provide links if you'd like me to. You can read my reports and see whether you think what is being reported might be compelling to you. Or not.I don't understand. Either you like scene-framed, player-driven RPGing or you don't.I've never played Gygaxian D&D, and my few attempts to GM it have been failed and pointless. I lack the patience, and perhaps also the skill set (I don't know about the latter because my patience gives out before my skills are put to any serious test).When I read other describing their Gygaxian play - not that often, but it comes up from time to time on these and other boards - I read with interest and can follow along. Generally I can see what they're doing - just because I don't particularly care for it and am not very good at it doesn't mean that I can't see what techniques others are using, note their skill (or lack thereof) and see that they are deriving pleasure from it.The best description of Gygaxian play I've read recently is <a href="https://plus.google.com/u/0/+lukecrane/posts/Q8qRhCw7az5" target="_blank">this post</a> by Luke Crane, about playing Moldvay Basic. (The post is not recent, but my reading of it is.) I think it captures the experience pretty well:Why is this era of D&D about puzzle-solving and exploration? Because your characters are fragile and treasure compromises 4/5s of the experience you earn, whereas fighting monsters earns only 1/5. Thus if there's a big monster guarding a valuable piece of treasure, the incentive is to figure out a way to get the treasure without fighting the monster. Fight only as a last resort; explore first so you can better solve. This shift in emphasis away from fighting was frustrating at first, but then profoundly refreshing once we sussed out the logic. Having learned this lesson at the cost of another seven deaths, the group completed B2 in grand style: Their plans were so effective, their exploration so thorough, that the victorious player characters suffered not a point of damage in the final confrontation. And I opposed them with mind-boggling array of villainy!. . .This slim red volume emerged before us as a brilliant piece of game design that not only changed our world with it's own bright light, but looking from the vantage of 1981, I can see that this game changed THE world. This world of dark dungeons and savage encounters slowly crept out into ours, from hobby shops to basements, to computer labs and movie screens. And we're all better off for having adventured in it, even if the game isn't played quite the same anymore.For myself, though, I haven't bought Torchbearer despite owning everything for Burning Wheel that I have been able to find. Gygaxian D&D is a pastime I admire from a distance, even when mediated through the creative design of Luke Crane.That's not a reason for me to disparage those who enjoy it, though. Best of luck to them! Judging from the way the forums are presented at BWHQ, Torchbearer is now more popular than Burning Wheel!</blockquote>

Verification