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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 6596255" data-attributes="member: 996">I can see how you might make that mistake.&nbsp; 4e was designed with balance as a priority, which means the designers had to take optimization into account.&nbsp; To the degree that it was successful (and it got a lot of updates to fix what wasn't), it actually cut down on the effects of such things.&nbsp; It was also a pretty clearly-presented system, so you could quite easily see it shaking out.&nbsp; There were optimal choices, they were easy to spot, so you didn't need to be a 'munchkin' (have lots of system mastery) to use them, and the reward for system mastery was less dramatic.&nbsp; In that very real sense, it was a 'less munchkin' game.&nbsp; In contrast, 3e was consciously designed to add extra rewards for system mastery, making it a very 'munchkin' game in the sense you're using it.Conversely, 5e keeps it's rules vague and DM-dependent, so, aside from &quot;gaming the GM&quot; and outright old-school Monty Haul, the 'munchkin' factor should be lower than 3.5, anyway.&nbsp;'Munchkin' was an insult, in the earlier days of the hobby, when it referred to very young gamers, so was an insult to a teen or adult.&nbsp; Today it's just mostly fallen out of use, but in-between it was a derogatory term for powergamer (a very unsophisticated and blatant powergamer, as opposed to a 3.x-era optimizer), as well, which is how you're using it.&nbsp; 'Optimization' is what it gets called since late 3.5 - the idea is that you're 'optimizing' a character, making the best character possible, rather than merely grabbing the biggest bonuses and looking to go on a childish wish-fulfillment power trip as 'munchkin' tends to imply.&nbsp;The SJG card game?&nbsp; It is a direct reference to the old meaning, it's supposed to recall how younger kids played D&amp;D in its early days.They're are proud optimizers, certainly, they'd object to 'munchkin' not for suggesting that they powergame or meta-game, but for implying that they're not so good at it or subtle about it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 6596255, member: 996"] I can see how you might make that mistake. 4e was designed with balance as a priority, which means the designers had to take optimization into account. To the degree that it was successful (and it got a lot of updates to fix what wasn't), it actually cut down on the effects of such things. It was also a pretty clearly-presented system, so you could quite easily see it shaking out. There were optimal choices, they were easy to spot, so you didn't need to be a 'munchkin' (have lots of system mastery) to use them, and the reward for system mastery was less dramatic. In that very real sense, it was a 'less munchkin' game. In contrast, 3e was consciously designed to add extra rewards for system mastery, making it a very 'munchkin' game in the sense you're using it. Conversely, 5e keeps it's rules vague and DM-dependent, so, aside from "gaming the GM" and outright old-school Monty Haul, the 'munchkin' factor should be lower than 3.5, anyway. 'Munchkin' was an insult, in the earlier days of the hobby, when it referred to very young gamers, so was an insult to a teen or adult. Today it's just mostly fallen out of use, but in-between it was a derogatory term for powergamer (a very unsophisticated and blatant powergamer, as opposed to a 3.x-era optimizer), as well, which is how you're using it. 'Optimization' is what it gets called since late 3.5 - the idea is that you're 'optimizing' a character, making the best character possible, rather than merely grabbing the biggest bonuses and looking to go on a childish wish-fulfillment power trip as 'munchkin' tends to imply. The SJG card game? It is a direct reference to the old meaning, it's supposed to recall how younger kids played D&D in its early days. They're are proud optimizers, certainly, they'd object to 'munchkin' not for suggesting that they powergame or meta-game, but for implying that they're not so good at it or subtle about it. [/QUOTE]

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