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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 6599985" data-attributes="member: 6696971">This is something new that I can engage with so I think I'll post some commentary. Understand that the below is working off of the assumption that JA is talking about the combat system of 4e.  4e's noncombat resolution system could not possibly be confused for anything other than a Story Now (!) abstract conflict resolution system.  So this must be about combat.  When I read this, the very first thought is "he really, really didn't know what he was looking at and/or how to execute properly."What is 4e combat's trope and narrative premise?  The heroic rally from the jaws of defeat and "will the heroes rally from the brink of defeat."  The combat system inexorably pushes play towards that dynamic in the same way that Dogs in the Vineyard pushes play towards escalation from verbal conflict to violence (or worse).  This is not by accident.  The machinery is locked in on this via:1)  HP pools are primarily latent (Healing Surges) and must be unlocked by the deft/timely deployment of thematic resources (eg Second Wind, Inspiring Word) to keep PCs "in the fight."2)  The bounded math (to-hit and defenses are scaled with each other/constrained).3)  Monster design (inflated HP pools, strong starts, and BBEG's "dangerous when bloodied or with servitors" nature) perpetuates their "sweet-spot relevance"; strong start but fades for Standards and Minions and more dangerous with mooks and as the fight goes on (like PCs) for the more relevant BBEGs (who have similar story relevance).4)  The tight encounter budgeting system with predictable (GM-side) results.5)  The synergy of the combat roles (and all that comes with it) protagonizes each individual archetype and the unit as a whole toward realizing their respective "shticks" as they work to overcome the "on the ropes" dynamic of 4e combat.6)  The limited-use abilities (including Action Points and shtick-based stunting) gives players deeper agency (author-stance capabilities) for when they want/need to "pull out all the stops" and snatch victory from the jaws of defeat.  This is like Dogs when you want to "up the stakes" and go from words to fists or from fists to guns.13th Age went about this a little bit differently with Recoveries being accessible via Saving Throws and the Escalation Die.  However, it is still the trope/premise that the combat engine is centered around.Beyond that, the 4e tech for the combat system is rife with Story Now (!) components.  Limited use abilities/unlockable abilities (like Dog's attribute/gear/relationship system opens up new dice/refreshes some as the scene changes), keyword-driven resources that translate to and from the fiction (like Powered By the Apocalypse and plenty of other systems).And really, the above doesn't even get into the depth of GM-side tools to make the heroes work for their rally (Minion and Swarm mechanics certainly come to mind)!I mean its all right there (transparent trope/premise, authorial rights, deep tactical/archetype agency so protagonism is realized merely by playing skillfully, combat engine pushing play toward the "rally" dynamic, keyword based mechanics/fiction and stunting, tight math, NPC creation and manifestation based on story relevance) and it inevitably emerges in play.  If his position is that "it doesn't work", then he didn't know what he was seeing or didn't know what he was doing or isn't remotely as skillful (or as understanding) GMing Story Now (!) play (in this case combat) as he thinks he is.I see the same thing with Skill Challenges where GMs/players decry them as facile gamist rubbish, meanwhile their parley's look something like this:Player:  I convince the king!  With my muscles!  By crushing a flagon with my bare hands!  Rawr Athletics!<fails>GM:  The king is unmoved by your show of strength.  Who is next?Player 2:  I diplomance him my razor wit and charm.  I tell him a funny pun!  Diplomacy!  Rawr!<fails>GM:  The king hates puns.  Who is next?Player 3:  I diplomance him HARDER than player 2!  <success>GM:  The king is listening now.  Who is next?User error.  Folks cannot like it all they want...but if a GM doesn't know what he is doing and/or players are expecting to be passive tourists to a GM (Forcing) running them through their favorite setting/AP, then of course dynamic drama/tropes won't emerge organically merely by way of aggressive player agency, deft narrative GMing, and consultation of the resolution mechanics.  It will look, and surely feel (empty), something like I suspect the above looks/feels.</blockquote>

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