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Confirm or Deny: D&D4e would be going strong had it not been titled D&D
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6600422" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I don't know about Olympic-level sprinters. I've known state-level sprinters who can do their best once, then need a serious rest before they can do that best time again. (I don't know the physiology of it, just the phenomenon.)</p><p></p><p>What I am saying is that mundane actions <em>have always been rationed,</em> within D&D combat: no more than one attack roll per round.</p><p></p><p>This is not the same rationing as magical abilities (until you get to at will, 1x/round cantrips), though. It's never occurred to me before that the "dissociation" concern is a variant of, or related to, the "sameyness" concern (if that is part of what you are saying).</p><p></p><p>It's clear that the "sameyness" issue is a big deal for many (would-be) D&D players. Hence the move back to asymmetric class builds in Essentials and in 5e. I think there are interesting issues raised by this about the relationship between mechanics and fiction - for instance, what do persuading someone and climbing a wall have in common that one might use the same mechanic (skill/stat check) but casting a spell lacks that thing in common so we use a different mechanic (auto-success at <em>casting</em>, though not necessarily in affecting the target)?</p><p></p><p>There are some readings of hit points where they model skill, talent and knowledge - for instance, the more-or-less Gygaxian treatment, where they reflect accrued combat skill and expertise.</p><p></p><p>On this picture, the character can block, dodge, get lucky etc (but not get <em>significantly</em> worn down, as shown by the lack of exhaustion and wound penalties) until s/he can't, as the last few hit points are taken away. There's a hard limit to luck and skill, which isn't systematically correlated to anything in the fiction. Rather, the fiction has to accommodate itself to the mechanics: suppose the defending character has 6 hp left, and the GM rolls a 17 to hit for the attacker (which is a good roll by any measure) and then the GM rolls the damage die (let's say it's 1d8+2): we don't know whether the PC got lucky/parried etc, or instead his/her luck ran out, until the result of that die is seen. Nothing in the fiction constrains or affects that answer.</p><p></p><p>I think if you see hit points this way, then daily martial powers - mechanically hard limits where the fiction has to accommodate itself to the mechanics - are perhaps less counterintuitive, though the limit is reached as a result of player choice rather than random rolling.</p><p></p><p>I have seen posters in the past (names escape me) who have expressed a preference for dice-rolled limits/refreshes rather than player-chosen limits/refreshes - if someone held that preference, then my hit point analogy would break down because hit points aren't a player-chosen/fiated limit but rather a randomly determined limit. I think this is probably part of why 13th Age goes for more random dice rationing rather than player-chosen rationing: it's catering to the preference I just described.</p><p></p><p>Flipping it round the other way, though, if someone likes the idea of player-chosen rationing rather than random dice rolls determining the rationing, they might also like the healing surge tweak that 4e adds to the traditional hit point system, which <em>reduces</em> the importance of random dice rolls (without eliminating them altogether) by <em>increasing</em> the number of decision points a player has to regulate his/her PCs own hit point total (by choosing to spend surges, within the mechanical frameworks that permit doing so).</p><p></p><p>From the point of view of "association"/"dissociation", for me the emphasis in 4e on player choice reinforces the connection between player and character because when the character really wants to pull out all the stops and try hard, the player can do the same thing (by choosing to spend these rationed resources), rather than simply have random dice rolls determine whether or not the character is really trying hard enough to win.</p><p></p><p>And sometimes - if all the dailies have been spent, all the surges gone, etc - the player looks at his/her sheet, wanting to try hard <em>again</em>, and finds that there's nothing left in the tank. That's an experience I can relate to from running and cycling, trying to push myself harder, and finding that my body has nothing more to give. Simply being delivered that information about my PC by a random die roll ("Oh, look, the damage die was a 5, so that's 7 points of damage - I'm down" or "Oh, look, I needed a crit to take down that orc but rolled a 1, I guess my guy wasn't up to it") tends to disconnect me from my character - because instead of inhabiting my character and his/her efforts I'm learning about them via an external, random agency.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 6600422, member: 42582"] I don't know about Olympic-level sprinters. I've known state-level sprinters who can do their best once, then need a serious rest before they can do that best time again. (I don't know the physiology of it, just the phenomenon.) What I am saying is that mundane actions [I]have always been rationed,[/I] within D&D combat: no more than one attack roll per round. This is not the same rationing as magical abilities (until you get to at will, 1x/round cantrips), though. It's never occurred to me before that the "dissociation" concern is a variant of, or related to, the "sameyness" concern (if that is part of what you are saying). It's clear that the "sameyness" issue is a big deal for many (would-be) D&D players. Hence the move back to asymmetric class builds in Essentials and in 5e. I think there are interesting issues raised by this about the relationship between mechanics and fiction - for instance, what do persuading someone and climbing a wall have in common that one might use the same mechanic (skill/stat check) but casting a spell lacks that thing in common so we use a different mechanic (auto-success at [I]casting[/I], though not necessarily in affecting the target)? There are some readings of hit points where they model skill, talent and knowledge - for instance, the more-or-less Gygaxian treatment, where they reflect accrued combat skill and expertise. On this picture, the character can block, dodge, get lucky etc (but not get [I]significantly[/I] worn down, as shown by the lack of exhaustion and wound penalties) until s/he can't, as the last few hit points are taken away. There's a hard limit to luck and skill, which isn't systematically correlated to anything in the fiction. Rather, the fiction has to accommodate itself to the mechanics: suppose the defending character has 6 hp left, and the GM rolls a 17 to hit for the attacker (which is a good roll by any measure) and then the GM rolls the damage die (let's say it's 1d8+2): we don't know whether the PC got lucky/parried etc, or instead his/her luck ran out, until the result of that die is seen. Nothing in the fiction constrains or affects that answer. I think if you see hit points this way, then daily martial powers - mechanically hard limits where the fiction has to accommodate itself to the mechanics - are perhaps less counterintuitive, though the limit is reached as a result of player choice rather than random rolling. I have seen posters in the past (names escape me) who have expressed a preference for dice-rolled limits/refreshes rather than player-chosen limits/refreshes - if someone held that preference, then my hit point analogy would break down because hit points aren't a player-chosen/fiated limit but rather a randomly determined limit. I think this is probably part of why 13th Age goes for more random dice rationing rather than player-chosen rationing: it's catering to the preference I just described. Flipping it round the other way, though, if someone likes the idea of player-chosen rationing rather than random dice rolls determining the rationing, they might also like the healing surge tweak that 4e adds to the traditional hit point system, which [I]reduces[/I] the importance of random dice rolls (without eliminating them altogether) by [I]increasing[/I] the number of decision points a player has to regulate his/her PCs own hit point total (by choosing to spend surges, within the mechanical frameworks that permit doing so). From the point of view of "association"/"dissociation", for me the emphasis in 4e on player choice reinforces the connection between player and character because when the character really wants to pull out all the stops and try hard, the player can do the same thing (by choosing to spend these rationed resources), rather than simply have random dice rolls determine whether or not the character is really trying hard enough to win. And sometimes - if all the dailies have been spent, all the surges gone, etc - the player looks at his/her sheet, wanting to try hard [I]again[/I], and finds that there's nothing left in the tank. That's an experience I can relate to from running and cycling, trying to push myself harder, and finding that my body has nothing more to give. Simply being delivered that information about my PC by a random die roll ("Oh, look, the damage die was a 5, so that's 7 points of damage - I'm down" or "Oh, look, I needed a crit to take down that orc but rolled a 1, I guess my guy wasn't up to it") tends to disconnect me from my character - because instead of inhabiting my character and his/her efforts I'm learning about them via an external, random agency. [/QUOTE]
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