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Message: <blockquote data-quote="spinozajack" data-source="post: 6604911" data-attributes="member: 6794198">4th edition and 5th edition might have literally the exact same definition for hit points, but 4th edition abilities and powers were designed in a vaccuum where you would have to make up weird justifications for how outcomes were actually arrived at. Let's say a party member is knocked out and doing some death saves. Then a warlord, a supposedly "martial" character, looks over from 15 feet away, and says "I inspire him to wake up using Inspiring Word". How does that work, exactly? How does an unconscious ally who cannot even move let alone hear you or be physically touched by you wake up all of a sudden, from being at death's door, from an inspiring and rousing speech from across the room, and without using magic?See, in 5th edition there are much fewer although sadly not none, examples of such things happening. If you cast Healing whatever, it's magic. If you want to heal others you use magic spells or some kind of bandages that take time to apply, or you rest. But aside from Second Wind there is really nothing that allows a martial character to literally heal himself or heal others off the ground. And that's the difference. 5th edition isn't perfect, but it makes a heck of a lot more logical sense in how things work and why things are happening, than 4th edition did. If you try to do a summoning ability, or a taunt, it's either magic or it requires a will save (or persuation, or charisma check). All those things were missing in 4th edition's "Come and Get it". There was literally no rational way to explain how half the powers worked in that game. And they didn't even try half the time. Even the martial characters with supposedly no magic were definitely magical in nature.When an ability is non-magical and non-supernatural, I expect it to work like any reasonable person would, that being bound by some kind of rational idea of what's possible to do without magic. That might differ from one person to the next somewhat, but it definitely does not allow your character to turn invisible, or shout fallen allies back to full health when they were dying a second before.The idea that HP are magic and can mean anything you want them to mean is exactly the issue. If they are so flexible as to allow characters or monsters to do absurdly ridiculous actions with no real justification or explanation, or is used to rationalize poor game design, that's a problem.And that is why, to answer the OP, that I believe 4e failed. They actually took the vagueness possible of the definition of HP and dialed it up to 11 and just said ahh screw it, let's make a game without bounds or concern for story or logic and call it D&D, and people will buy it. It's New! It's Fresh! It's a Slap in the face to those people who are fond of logic! And you'll love it! Trust us, it's D&D! See, it's written right here. If something is printed on a cover of a book it must be true, right? It can't be anything but authentic in every way, right? People can't possibly argue otherwise, right?</blockquote>

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