NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!

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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 6605006" data-attributes="member: 42582">OK, I agree with that!I think I've made it clear why I think they're hopeless as process sim (no connection to actual injuries, no debilitation etc). For that, I'll use the systems that deliver it. For me, hit points move all the PC-side narration (except for unconsciousness/death, depending on 1st ed AD&D or 4e) into the fantasy/heroic genre trope.I'm not sure I've seen this exactly.My table is, I think, more tolerant of diverse PC commitments and agendas (in terms of backstories, allegiances that actually matter in play, etc) than some D&D tables, where any PC vs PC disagreement or conflict is frowned upon. But because D&D is about party play (and 4e especially) there's also an unspoken understanding that players will find ways, from within the perspectives of their PCs, to "go along" - and as a GM I also do my best to frame situations and challenges that engage the whole party.At least two of the characters in my game are fairly grim/dark - the paladin of the Raven Queen, whose marching song is "Death, death, death, death" repeated over and over, who sleeps standing up (because only the dead lie on their backs) and who shows pity for no one, least of all his fellow PCs; and the (<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?440504-The-Abyss-sealed-the-drow-freed-the-campaign-reaches-its-climax" target="_blank">now former</a>) drow chaos sorcerer Demonskin Adept. The mechanics make the drow something of a show-pony; but he is also, in virtue of this, a solid member of the team (their main damage dealer). The paladin is a fairly low-damage character, but is the number-one tanker of solos in the party; his ability to function self-contained (he packs his own defences, hit points, healing and buffing) tends to reinforce his character as solitary and disdainful in relation to the rest of the party.I don't think I'm describing the same thing as you did - so I guess the immediate answer to your question is "no" - but I can say that the 4e mechanics have allowed the players to express their characters in a meaningful way while nevertheless ensuring a type of integration into the party dynamic, even though that is not the innate disposition of the character. (The other PCs are party-players in combat in more obvious ways: the invoker/wizard clearly needs physical defenders, and is all about setting up for others, and is a servant of Erathis, a god of organisation; the cleric-ranger is a healer, buffer and "intervener" (eg defensive or retaliatory shots); the fighter is an Eternal Defender of Moradin, so his whole raison d'etre is other-regarding, and mechanically is a melee controller who coordinates closely with the sorcerer to optimise positioning for defensive and their mutual AoE purposes.)Out of combat, the same personalities tend to show through: the ranger-cleric is a facilitator (strong skills are Nature and Perception), the paladin is grim and dour (Intimidate) or else steers a path of negotiations without regard to the rest of the party (best Diplomacy in the group); the invoker-wizard is the skill monkey, especially knowledge skills, who therefore solves the puzzles or sets things up so the group can proceed; the sorcerer is a Bluff-y, sometimes Diplomatic or Intimidating show pony (Acrobatics and Stealth are his physical abilities, both of which lend themselves to showboating on occasion ); the fighter is all about Athletics and Endurance, and often uses these to help the other members of his party, who tend to be somewhat on the physically weak side.Something I enjoy - and I don't know if this is a feature of Savage Worlds play or not - is when the fiction pushes the players to play their PCs against mechanical type. For instance, the player of the dwarf is so passionate about something, and frustrated with how the other players are having their PCs engage a situation, that he comes in and makes the Diplomacy check to try and push things his way; or, in a combat, the sorcerer finds himself having to hold the front line. This is not necessarily where heroism comes to the fore, but it can lead to narrow and exciting successes, or to meaningful failures - meaningful because the player really put his/her PC on the line for a reason, and even if it didn't work out quite as desired something interesting happened in the fiction as a result.I think 4e supports this better than AD&D because its approach to action resolution, consequences etc creates a more nuanced range of failure and partial failure conditions than simply alive/dead.</blockquote>

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