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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 4060269" data-attributes="member: 4937">No, the difference is you decided that they were not minutiae.  The difference is you decided that they were non-significant.  We haven't established what the criteria for this decision was, especially given how (unlike say encumberance) extremely easy and non-time consuming tracking things like ammunition and food is.I have no idea what 'the opposite' means in this context.  I would think that the opposite is that players are more likely to be exactly sticklers for minutiea when doing so would impose a penalty on them.  Or in other words, those groups have players who consistantly keep track of arrows, encumberance, food, and every sort of 'realistic minutiae' that solely by tracking is to thier disadvantage, but who on the other hand are fine to hand wave any minutiae which by tracking exactly would be an advantage to them.   That would indeed be a 'high-trust' environment, and I much prefer to play with players that keep track of thier own character sheet so I don't have to, but that also doesn't seem to be what you are saying.Let's backup and look how this got debate got started.  Some of us claimed that by the rules, summoned creatures were not completely in the control of the players.  For example, control of summoned creatures requires communication, and that requires not only a common language but that the summoned creature have the understanding to perform the instructions.  This claim was met with extreme dismay and ridicule, among which was the claim that not letting the player have complete control of a summoned creature would be as ridiculous was keeping track of ammunition.  To that I have responded, "Wait a minute... keeping track of ammunition isn't ridiculous either.  There are some very good reasons for keeping track of ammunition."To that, primarily the responce has been for the most part variations on, "Oh yeah.  Well its far too time consuming and gets in the way of play."And that strikes me as an utterly bogus argument, because the amount of time it takes is being greatly exaggerated.  What I'm hearing is really, "If it takes any time at all, then that is too time consuming."  And that suggests that there is a deeper reason for ignoring it.However, whatever the reasons may be, I'm not suggesting that groups where everyone could care less are having 'badwrongfun' because they don't always explicitly track these things.  If that's all you are trying to prove, you are arguing with the wrong person.  Alot of the discomfort people are having with 4e is that the game seems to be moving to explicitly or implicitly saying that the way that they play is not the right way to play.</blockquote>

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