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<blockquote data-quote="Trouvere" data-source="post: 4991286" data-attributes="member: 37250">If you'll allow me a lengthy digression....There are two types of 'optimization'.&nbsp; Let me give an example.Innocent poster wanders along and says &quot;Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?&quot;A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC.The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says &quot;Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix.&nbsp; Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd.&quot;&nbsp; He has a friend who parrots &quot;Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle&quot; whenever anyone mentions a melee class.&nbsp; Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer.&nbsp; Real helpful.So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively &quot;don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger.&quot;But this Learner... well, I really don't get it.&nbsp; It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again.&nbsp; I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge.&nbsp; I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels.I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues.&nbsp; But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Trouvere, post: 4991286, member: 37250"] If you'll allow me a lengthy digression.... There are two types of 'optimization'. Let me give an example. Innocent poster wanders along and says "Hey, can you help me with my mystic theurge?" A 'good' optimizer takes a weak choice and makes it as strong as possible for that choice - start with Cloistered Cleric for maximum skill points, go specialist Wizard dropping Abjuration which the cleric side can cover, see if you can qualify for a prestige class at 6th level, if you can swing it take the Kobold and Travel domains for trapfinding and Survival (with Track) to supplement your weaker casting with some secondary roles, finish off with a decent PrC. The other kind of optimizer, whom I see far too often, says "Yes, good, but drop the Cleric levels, and swap the Theurge levels for Incantatrix. Or go Druid/Planar Shepherd." He has a friend who parrots "Tome of Battle, Tome of Battle" whenever anyone mentions a melee class. Yeah, gee, thanks, Mr Optimizer. Real helpful. So I have very little patience for anyone who says effectively "don't bother with what you want to play, because there's an entirely different build that's stronger." But this Learner... well, I really don't get it. It forces you to spend around a third of your career (5 to 7 levels) as an arcane caster, and then stall and start a new progression all over again. I can understand why a PC might devote themselves to both arcane and divine magic and enter Mystic Theurge. I don't understand why a PC would turn their back on their arcane casting for, essentially, more lower level arcane casting... at least, not for 10 levels. I could see it as a kind of Spellthief PrC for Rogues. But it really ought to have been a unique PrC for a Ranger focused on aberrations, magical beasts and outsiders, losing BAB and skill points and the very limited Ranger spellcasting for something a lot more interesting. [/QUOTE]

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