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<blockquote data-quote="Libramarian" data-source="post: 7716661" data-attributes="member: 6688858">You (and [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] and [MENTION=40166]prosfilaes[/MENTION]) were in several posts pursuing the claim that classic gamist D&amp;D doesn't exist as an internally consistent and functional way to play.As I said earlier classic D&amp;D has many interesting analogies with&nbsp; the game of poker, which I hope you agree has a significant skill&nbsp; component. The skills stressed can broadly be called risk management and&nbsp; adaptability. If you turtle, you're jeered by the other players and you&nbsp; get fewer XPs and magic items. But if you're rash, you bust and have to&nbsp; start over. You play the hand you're dealt as best you can to tilt the&nbsp; odds in your favor. This involves a little bit of mathematical&nbsp; calculation, metagame knowledge, a feel for the fantasy subgenre&nbsp; informing the game, reading the DM and coolness under pressure. It&nbsp; certainly feels challenging and some are certainly better at it than&nbsp; others.The purpose of randomness in D&amp;D is just as it is in other games, to&nbsp; present the players with unexpected situations so they have to pay&nbsp; attention and adapt rather than get into a rut of using the same&nbsp; strategy over and over. You would be amazed at how closely classic&nbsp; D&amp;D players pay attention.In my games if I describe the temperature as being unusually&nbsp; cool in an&nbsp; area, the players know that's a bad sign that must be considered before&nbsp; deciding to explore further. In a Tekumel game it could be the smell of&nbsp; cinnamon. This being more than just flavor text requires a game system&nbsp; with relatively &quot;unbalanced&quot; monster encounters. Otherwise it doesn't&nbsp; really matter how the players respond to this clue and an opportunity to&nbsp; distinguish by player skill is lost.Random chargen is like being dealt a hand in poker. No one is going to&nbsp; give you unearned props for being dealt a good hand. The purpose is to&nbsp; provide an interesting wrinkle to your early game decisions. A player of&nbsp; mine once commented that they almost don't like rolling a really good&nbsp; new character, because of the extra pressure to be cautious and keep&nbsp; them alive. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/laugh.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":lol:" title="Laughing&nbsp; &nbsp; :lol:" data-shortname=":lol:" />&nbsp; Similar to someone going &quot;oh crap&quot; when they're dealt a pair of aces.&nbsp; With a complicated, deterministic chargen system, most gamist players&nbsp; just look up the good builds online (that's certainly what I do).&nbsp; Totally boring from a gamist perspective. I think usually players who want to reduce randomness really just want a&nbsp; situation&nbsp; where if they win, they can act like they've earned it, but&nbsp; if they&nbsp; lose, they can blame the DM or adventure designer for setting&nbsp; them up&nbsp; for failure by not following the encounter building guidelines&nbsp; or the treasure by level rules or whatever. This kind of win-win play I&nbsp; think can fairly be said is to gamism what participationism is to&nbsp; narrativism.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Libramarian, post: 7716661, member: 6688858"] You (and [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] and [MENTION=40166]prosfilaes[/MENTION]) were in several posts pursuing the claim that classic gamist D&D doesn't exist as an internally consistent and functional way to play. As I said earlier classic D&D has many interesting analogies with the game of poker, which I hope you agree has a significant skill component. The skills stressed can broadly be called risk management and adaptability. If you turtle, you're jeered by the other players and you get fewer XPs and magic items. But if you're rash, you bust and have to start over. You play the hand you're dealt as best you can to tilt the odds in your favor. This involves a little bit of mathematical calculation, metagame knowledge, a feel for the fantasy subgenre informing the game, reading the DM and coolness under pressure. It certainly feels challenging and some are certainly better at it than others. The purpose of randomness in D&D is just as it is in other games, to present the players with unexpected situations so they have to pay attention and adapt rather than get into a rut of using the same strategy over and over. You would be amazed at how closely classic D&D players [I]pay attention[/I]. In my games if I describe the temperature as being unusually cool in an area, the players know that's a bad sign that must be considered before deciding to explore further. In a Tekumel game it could be the smell of cinnamon. This being more than just flavor text requires a game system with relatively "unbalanced" monster encounters. Otherwise it doesn't really matter how the players respond to this clue and an opportunity to distinguish by player skill is lost. Random chargen is like being dealt a hand in poker. No one is going to give you unearned props for being dealt a good hand. The purpose is to provide an interesting wrinkle to your early game decisions. A player of mine once commented that they almost don't like rolling a really good new character, because of the extra pressure to be cautious and keep them alive. :lol: Similar to someone going "oh crap" when they're dealt a pair of aces. With a complicated, deterministic chargen system, most gamist players just look up the good builds online (that's certainly what I do). Totally boring from a gamist perspective. I think usually players who want to reduce randomness really just want a situation where if they win, they can act like they've earned it, but if they lose, they can blame the DM or adventure designer for setting them up for failure by not following the encounter building guidelines or the treasure by level rules or whatever. This kind of win-win play I think can fairly be said is to gamism what participationism is to narrativism. [/QUOTE]

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