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Consequences of Failure
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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7796476" data-attributes="member: 4937"><p>[USER=6801328]@Elfcrusher[/USER]</p><p></p><p>Grr. New interface issues.</p><p></p><p>Yes, I know I'm frustrating but you really are over thinking this and heading down to dead end. You are wrong about what I assume your motivation to be. I assume you are trying laudably, to be a better GM.</p><p></p><p>And there really is a nugget of truth that is very important to be found things like ""goal and approach" and I'm glad that it is helping you develop your game.</p><p></p><p>But it's not a straightjacket, and the real underlying issue is good encounter design.</p><p></p><p>But ok, let's look at your scenario where the bugbear hears the party and they decide to hide. You are suggesting that since the consequence of failure is that they are seen and now have to deal with the bugbear, that this is the same as doing nothing. And that is one of the several ways your wrong about this. Because the consequences of failure of that plan is that the didn't try a different plan. Hearing the bugbear coming down the corridor, they could have tried, "We all get out our bows and ready to shoot whatever it is that is coming down the corridor." And that plan puts them in a better position than having gone off to hide and failed. Moreover, that plan has meaningful consequences of failure that potentially have nothing to do with dice rolls, like if the thing that comes around the corner isn't a bugbear, but the princess they've been trying to rescue.</p><p></p><p>Consider the problem of checking the door for traps and an investigation roll. It's not fun. But it also doesn't take up much time at the table. The question I would have is why are the players checking for traps in the first place? If it is a main thorough fare in the bugbears lair, it probably doesn't have a death trap on it, and if you have put a death trap on it, then you've got an encounter design issue - you've just described something to the player's that strongly suggests no traps. So if you have players checking for traps where the chances of a trap is really small, then you're not setting up scenarios well. On the other hand, if this looks to be some sealed treasure vault, now the check for traps thing might be part of an meaningful scenario. Not finding the trap leaves the player without an important clue about how to get the door open safely.</p><p></p><p>But what's important here is not the mechanical approach to the process of play, but that the whole room leading to a trap and the trap itself be engaging. A good trap should be engaging, and when sprung get the party involved. I'm not a fan of traps that are just big blobs of damage that maybe at most inflict some amount of attrition on the party. Traps that are just that tend to be grindy and boring, and in your terminology tend to not lead to "goal and approach" play. But traps that place party members in ongoing jeopardy do tend to lead to what you call "goal and approach" play.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7796476, member: 4937"] [USER=6801328]@Elfcrusher[/USER] Grr. New interface issues. Yes, I know I'm frustrating but you really are over thinking this and heading down to dead end. You are wrong about what I assume your motivation to be. I assume you are trying laudably, to be a better GM. And there really is a nugget of truth that is very important to be found things like ""goal and approach" and I'm glad that it is helping you develop your game. But it's not a straightjacket, and the real underlying issue is good encounter design. But ok, let's look at your scenario where the bugbear hears the party and they decide to hide. You are suggesting that since the consequence of failure is that they are seen and now have to deal with the bugbear, that this is the same as doing nothing. And that is one of the several ways your wrong about this. Because the consequences of failure of that plan is that the didn't try a different plan. Hearing the bugbear coming down the corridor, they could have tried, "We all get out our bows and ready to shoot whatever it is that is coming down the corridor." And that plan puts them in a better position than having gone off to hide and failed. Moreover, that plan has meaningful consequences of failure that potentially have nothing to do with dice rolls, like if the thing that comes around the corner isn't a bugbear, but the princess they've been trying to rescue. Consider the problem of checking the door for traps and an investigation roll. It's not fun. But it also doesn't take up much time at the table. The question I would have is why are the players checking for traps in the first place? If it is a main thorough fare in the bugbears lair, it probably doesn't have a death trap on it, and if you have put a death trap on it, then you've got an encounter design issue - you've just described something to the player's that strongly suggests no traps. So if you have players checking for traps where the chances of a trap is really small, then you're not setting up scenarios well. On the other hand, if this looks to be some sealed treasure vault, now the check for traps thing might be part of an meaningful scenario. Not finding the trap leaves the player without an important clue about how to get the door open safely. But what's important here is not the mechanical approach to the process of play, but that the whole room leading to a trap and the trap itself be engaging. A good trap should be engaging, and when sprung get the party involved. I'm not a fan of traps that are just big blobs of damage that maybe at most inflict some amount of attrition on the party. Traps that are just that tend to be grindy and boring, and in your terminology tend to not lead to "goal and approach" play. But traps that place party members in ongoing jeopardy do tend to lead to what you call "goal and approach" play. [/QUOTE]
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