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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7797415" data-attributes="member: 4937">A knowledge check is a "call" rather than a "proposition". That is, the player is asking for permission to assert something about the environment, namely, that his character knows some piece of information - often information which is also not known to the player. (Of course, there are tables that require players to not act on metagame knowledge, but I'm not one of those tables and I don't want to derail an already difficult discussion by commenting too much on that.)However, despite being a "call" and not a "proposition", for the terms of this debate they fit into the same category of propositions causing issues for the OP.Specifically, we know that there are actions where success or failure on the roll will change the status quo. We all agree that's good and cool. We know that there are actions where success or failure will not change the status quo. We all agree that those really don't need a die roll because there is no meaningful consequences. It's the other two categories that are causing problems, and in particular the category of actions that change the status quo on success but do not change it on failure that is causing problems for the OP.Knowledge checks change the status quo on success and do not change it on failure. However, they are far from the only checks that do this, and as we've seen they share that quality with some actions. In fact, even if we transformed all Knowledge checks into actions, by making them require some sort of research action before they were treated as valid propositions, they would still have this feature and we'd still be arguing about lost opportunity costs and whether time investment in and of itself represented a reasonable consequence of failure. So I don't think that the fact that they don't have an action associated with them is really the heart of the problem, or the OP wouldn't be focused on how difficult Stealth was.</blockquote>

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