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Message: <blockquote data-quote="chaochou" data-source="post: 7798292" data-attributes="member: 99817">It's not a tougher one to do, given the right system. But it is a tougher one to discuss, simply because it cuts between paradigms of play which share little overlap.Generally then, if you want meaningful consequences of failure for a knowledge roll, you only  make the roll at the point at which a character takes some action based on that knowledge.In other words, if a frog-thing is hopping towards your character, you don't say (a) 'I'll make a knowledge check' you say (b) 'I'll hurl a flask of flaming oil at it, because I remember these frog-things burn real easy.'Obviously, there are all kinds of interesting meaningful failures for (b). Frog-things might be resistant to fire. Or explosive. Many options.The obvious sticking point is that many systems are predicated on the idea that success at (b) doesn't make susceptability to fire true - many people would say that's made true by the GMs notes or the Monster Manual. They will deny the player ever gets the authority over content.So if you leave authority for content or situational creation with the GM, failed knowledge (or perception or arcana etc) checks deny learning what the GM has already decided, while successful ones allow for passive receipt of information.But a successful knowledge roll can be used within an rpg system to share content authority at that moment. If that happens, you can end up at (b).Similarly, although stealth has been discussed in the thread it's worth noting that a stealth roll could be accompanied by this statement 'I hide behind the old boxes stacked in the corner'. And the roll can be used determine what happens next. In this case the roll is determining whether the player is allowed situational authority to add some previously unnoticed or unimportant old boxes into play, or whether the GM gets to deny, complicate or aggravate this situation in some new and unexpected way.Such play is perfectly normal, functional and fun, albeit quite removed from most D&D play (with, perhaps, the exception of 4e skill challenges, which were themselves an outlier).</blockquote>

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