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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7798459" data-attributes="member: 22779">I finally made a breakthrough this morning.&nbsp; That bit I bolded?&nbsp; It's wrong.And I can prove it.There is never a fail condition on any opposed check, only success conditions.&nbsp; Opposed checks, like a stealth check, cannot be failed.&nbsp; I don't stop hiding because someone rolled a higher perception, I'm still hiding.&nbsp; They just succeeded on their perception check.&nbsp; Or, put it another way, if two characters are arm wrestling, one character does not stop arm wrestling because the other character rolled a higher Athletics check.So, no, there are conditions where ability checks are called for even if there is no meaningful consequence of failure.&nbsp; Simply put, in any opposed check, like stealth, there is no fail condition, only a success condition.&nbsp; This is why the stealth example doesn't really work with goal and approach methods.&nbsp; Opposed checks can't work like that because the check determines the actions, not the other way around.&nbsp; I cannot narrate any arm wrestling action, other than I push really hard, and the roll represents my best effort at that time.&nbsp; There are many checks in 5e D&amp;D where the consequence of failure isn't meaningful - it only preserves the status quo or there are no fail conditions at all.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7798459, member: 22779"] I finally made a breakthrough this morning. That bit I bolded? It's wrong. And I can prove it. There is never a fail condition on any opposed check, only success conditions. Opposed checks, like a stealth check, cannot be failed. I don't stop hiding because someone rolled a higher perception, I'm still hiding. They just succeeded on their perception check. Or, put it another way, if two characters are arm wrestling, one character does not stop arm wrestling because the other character rolled a higher Athletics check. So, no, there are conditions where ability checks are called for even if there is no meaningful consequence of failure. Simply put, in any opposed check, like stealth, there is no fail condition, only a success condition. This is why the stealth example doesn't really work with goal and approach methods. Opposed checks can't work like that because the check determines the actions, not the other way around. I cannot narrate any arm wrestling action, other than I push really hard, and the roll represents my best effort at that time. There are many checks in 5e D&D where the consequence of failure isn't meaningful - it only preserves the status quo or there are no fail conditions at all. [/QUOTE]

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