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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7806910" data-attributes="member: 16814"><p>Welcome to the beginning stages of some actually different playstyles. There are many games where players can make truth propositions that the mechanics then test rather than leaving it up to the DM. There are even others where players can just assert things about the fiction without any adjudication, or win the right after a table challenge. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And, many find this outcome very problem causing. For one, the player likely knows they rolled poorly, so they know the information is bad but have to act otherwise. This puts a strain on authentic portrayal of the character. In effect, you've now tasked the player to play in a way that's best for the story rather than be the strongest advocate for their character possible. Also, this method involve you, the DM, providing false information to the players. This can (and usually does) erode player trust in the DM.</p><p></p><p>Yes, you can do it, but the system is bad at it and you will get poor results. If I, as a player, can assert fiction in play by leveraging my best scores and playing to gain advantage, then I'll start directing play in ways the GM has little control over. Since I'm then creating my own problems and then their solutions, we're now in a degenerate situation for game play. This isn't good. The only factor the GM would control here is setting DCs, which the temptation is to set high for control, but, again, this leads to players stacking powers for high rolls and also erodes player trust in the GM. It sets up a bad adversarial position in play. As such, I say that 5e has no mechanical means to enable this kind of play because just doing it leads to degenerate play situations.</p><p></p><p>However, I agree that GMs will often incorporate new fiction based on player action declarations (or out-loud thinking) because that sounds fun. The point I was making is that this kind of thing is based on the GM's approval, not any mechanical functions in 5e. The GM decides is the only means of new fiction, and the system is built to enable and work with this. The resolution tools in 5e are, after all, only engaged after the GM considers the situation and the action and determines there's uncertainty and a consequence for failure. Note that this only happens if the GM decides.</p><p></p><p>Even if you go with players asking for rolls, it's still the GM deciding what happens for any outcome, not the player. Again, GM decides in the controlling mechanical structure.</p><p></p><p>What I'm discussing here is player initiated fiction introduction in a direct manner. 5e is not built to support this.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7806910, member: 16814"] Welcome to the beginning stages of some actually different playstyles. There are many games where players can make truth propositions that the mechanics then test rather than leaving it up to the DM. There are even others where players can just assert things about the fiction without any adjudication, or win the right after a table challenge. And, many find this outcome very problem causing. For one, the player likely knows they rolled poorly, so they know the information is bad but have to act otherwise. This puts a strain on authentic portrayal of the character. In effect, you've now tasked the player to play in a way that's best for the story rather than be the strongest advocate for their character possible. Also, this method involve you, the DM, providing false information to the players. This can (and usually does) erode player trust in the DM. Yes, you can do it, but the system is bad at it and you will get poor results. If I, as a player, can assert fiction in play by leveraging my best scores and playing to gain advantage, then I'll start directing play in ways the GM has little control over. Since I'm then creating my own problems and then their solutions, we're now in a degenerate situation for game play. This isn't good. The only factor the GM would control here is setting DCs, which the temptation is to set high for control, but, again, this leads to players stacking powers for high rolls and also erodes player trust in the GM. It sets up a bad adversarial position in play. As such, I say that 5e has no mechanical means to enable this kind of play because just doing it leads to degenerate play situations. However, I agree that GMs will often incorporate new fiction based on player action declarations (or out-loud thinking) because that sounds fun. The point I was making is that this kind of thing is based on the GM's approval, not any mechanical functions in 5e. The GM decides is the only means of new fiction, and the system is built to enable and work with this. The resolution tools in 5e are, after all, only engaged after the GM considers the situation and the action and determines there's uncertainty and a consequence for failure. Note that this only happens if the GM decides. Even if you go with players asking for rolls, it's still the GM deciding what happens for any outcome, not the player. Again, GM decides in the controlling mechanical structure. What I'm discussing here is player initiated fiction introduction in a direct manner. 5e is not built to support this. [/QUOTE]
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